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Sir Keir Starmer

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletpimp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 September 2021 at 6:38pm
I Don't know what a political thread is doing on a scarlets rugby forum
I have to say however,have really enjoyed reading the comments who seem as well informed as they on rugby issues.
For my part, I might as well add my views to the debate.
For starters, we have a government led by one of the incompetent PM's in recent memory.Handling of the pandemic alone (pre vacinations) was shocking.My partners a nurse,and the anger and frustration in the NHS is huge.To top it all they totally insult a group of people who put their lives on the line saving others, with at disgraceful pay offer. Two of my partners colleagues died of coved, trying to do their duty.
The issue of care homes and how they were treated is another debate.
Many of the tories like Johnson, rees-mogg ,and the super rich chancellor sunak , seem to exist in a different spheres to the rest of us !

The question is is STARMER, the right man to take them on and defeat them is a matter of debate.
Some on here have described himself "bland",and to a degree, they would get correct.
He has a 'forensic'style approach, based on his background.This is of course in complete contrast to the colourful PM,who attention to detail is minimal! 
Again Starmer has,due the pandemic, had no platform to project himself, and the Labour Party he leads in his vision .
Conference speech,has sketched out in clearer terms the differences and choices the public will have to make between Labour and the Tories.This is only the start of the journey however, and must continue at a much greater pace than we have seen to date.
Opposing, and exposing incompetence is one thing, but giving a clear alternative is another.
No one is going to ask for clear definitive policies, this far from an election,but what we can expect is a clear vision of an alternative  UK and a better way of running things.
Social care,will be a huge debate moving forward, and how we attempt to fairly support the most vulnerable in our society.Re- energising our economy, post brexit, is another,as is education, and climate change.
Soon the glare of the shocking Tory media, will turn its focus on destroying Starmer, like its done with Labour leaders before him.
Despite their many good points (and policies) Corbyn & Milliband often did not help themselves,and suffered heavy defeats.
For the sake of millions in need genuine ,not pretend"levelling up",let us hope Starmer doesn't suffer the same fate,
I wish him luck!
I stood yer on tanner bank
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 September 2021 at 8:08am
Originally posted by scarletpimp scarletpimp wrote:

I Don't know what a political thread is doing on a scarlets rugby forum
I have to say however,have really enjoyed reading the comments who seem as well informed as they on rugby issues.
For my part, I might as well add my views to the debate.
For starters, we have a government led by one of the incompetent PM's in recent memory.Handling of the pandemic alone (pre vacinations) was shocking.My partners a nurse,and the anger and frustration in the NHS is huge.To top it all they totally insult a group of people who put their lives on the line saving others, with at disgraceful pay offer. Two of my partners colleagues died of coved, trying to do their duty.
The issue of care homes and how they were treated is another debate.
Many of the tories like Johnson, rees-mogg ,and the super rich chancellor sunak , seem to exist in a different spheres to the rest of us !

The question is is STARMER, the right man to take them on and defeat them is a matter of debate.
Some on here have described himself "bland",and to a degree, they would get correct.
He has a 'forensic'style approach, based on his background.This is of course in complete contrast to the colourful PM,who attention to detail is minimal! 
Again Starmer has,due the pandemic, had no platform to project himself, and the Labour Party he leads in his vision .
Conference speech,has sketched out in clearer terms the differences and choices the public will have to make between Labour and the Tories.This is only the start of the journey however, and must continue at a much greater pace than we have seen to date.
Opposing, and exposing incompetence is one thing, but giving a clear alternative is another.
No one is going to ask for clear definitive policies, this far from an election,but what we can expect is a clear vision of an alternative  UK and a better way of running things.
Social care,will be a huge debate moving forward, and how we attempt to fairly support the most vulnerable in our society.Re- energising our economy, post brexit, is another,as is education, and climate change.
Soon the glare of the shocking Tory media, will turn its focus on destroying Starmer, like its done with Labour leaders before him.
Despite their many good points (and policies) Corbyn & Milliband often did not help themselves,and suffered heavy defeats.
For the sake of millions in need genuine ,not pretend"levelling up",let us hope Starmer doesn't suffer the same fate,
I wish him luck!

Good post. Starmer may be too grey for many but he does come across to me as someone who can think & develop policies. His main problem will come from within - is he left wing enough to get support. At least he has shown he is ready for the fight but I cannot help feeling that far too much energy is consumed by a labour leader fighting internal battles & not the real enemy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 September 2021 at 10:35am
The labour left are more comcerned with winning arguements than winning power, lets nationalise everything is the latest fad, how exactly can we nationalise edf when the french govt own 85 per cent of it? Who will pay for nationalising the big energy providers? Mid pandemic eh? lets double the minium wage !! These people are not in the real world, starmer spoke sense this wek, burnham is still my preffered choice though

Edited by RR1972 - 30 September 2021 at 10:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dai Guevara Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 September 2021 at 11:57am
It's not a fad, all these - energy, water, postal services, telecommunications, railways were once nationalised and the majority of people would like them re-nationalised. Perhaps you'd like to further privatise the NHS, totally privatise education, the roads and the armed forces, obviously putting them in the hands of greedy capitalists makes them better - for the greedy capitalists?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 September 2021 at 12:29pm
Originally posted by Dai Guevara Dai Guevara wrote:

It's not a fad, all these - energy, water, postal services, telecommunications, railways were once nationalised and the majority of people would like them re-nationalised. Perhaps you'd like to further privatise the NHS, totally privatise education, the roads and the armed forces, obviously putting them in the hands of greedy capitalists makes them better - for the greedy capitalists?

Be interesting to see whether it is the case. And also I wonder just how many of these companies/services are actually UK owned? That must further complicate matters.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 September 2021 at 1:00pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

lets double the minimum wage !!

Norm MacDonald, the brilliant comedian who died the other day, make a remark tweet 

The sad thing is even if you double the minimum wage, it will remain the minimum wage.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 September 2021 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by Dai Guevara Dai Guevara wrote:

It's not a fad, all these - energy, water, postal services, telecommunications, railways were once nationalised and the majority of people would like them re-nationalised.

“If you ask a child what they’d like in a cake, they’d ask for a cake made entirely of icing. The problem is, if you make a cake entirely of icing the cake tastes rubbish and the child feels sick” - Someone I can’t remember 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 September 2021 at 1:08pm
Originally posted by Dai Guevara Dai Guevara wrote:

It's not a fad, all these - energy, water, postal services, telecommunications, railways were once nationalised and the majority of people would like them re-nationalised. Perhaps you'd like to further privatise the NHS, totally privatise education, the roads and the armed forces, obviously putting them in the hands of greedy capitalists makes them better - for the greedy capitalists?
i’d like a porsche i can’t afford one, the uk can’t afford at present to buy back these privatised business, want and can are two diff things.  It’s one thing to take over a failed business and nationalise it not so easy to buy out a profit making one though. A nice idea but not practical

Edited by RR1972 - 30 September 2021 at 1:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 September 2021 at 1:14pm
Originally posted by Dai Guevara Dai Guevara wrote:

Perhaps you'd like to further privatise the NHS, totally privatise education, the roads and the armed forces, obviously putting them in the hands of greedy capitalists makes them better - for the greedy capitalists?

The thing about the greedy capitalists is they have to actually provide value or they die. 

Crucial things like our food supply are run mainly by greedy capitalists like Tesco, Sainsburies, Aldi and Lidl - and when we needed them to supply food in a pandemic, they found a way! 

The problem with state enterprises is they ask for money and then try and deliver value. And if they can’t deliver any value they ask for more money. There’s little incentive to cut costs and deliver more value, because there’s limited competition - they just ask for more money, not through free-choice but through coercion (taxes).

You’re right that most people want lots of industries nationalised, and there’s always arguments for each individual industry. But other countries manage with more competitive heath, train and school systems, just as we manage without a National Food Service.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 September 2021 at 1:36pm
Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Originally posted by Dai Guevara Dai Guevara wrote:

Perhaps you'd like to further privatise the NHS, totally privatise education, the roads and the armed forces, obviously putting them in the hands of greedy capitalists makes them better - for the greedy capitalists?

The thing about the greedy capitalists is they have to actually provide value or they die. 

Crucial things like our food supply are run mainly by greedy capitalists like Tesco, Sainsburies, Aldi and Lidl - and when we needed them to supply food in a pandemic, they found a way! 

The problem with state enterprises is they ask for money and then try and deliver value. And if they can’t deliver any value they ask for more money. There’s little incentive to cut costs and deliver more value, because there’s limited competition - they just ask for more money, not through free-choice but through coercion (taxes).

You’re right that most people want lots of industries nationalised, and there’s always arguments for each individual industry. But other countries manage with more competitive heath, train and school systems, just as we manage without a National Food Service.

History surely has taught us that there are some Industries which should be ring fenced & owned by the British people/parliament. Look no further for proof of this than what happened recently in Jersey. Because the French didn't like the way permits were being given to French fishermen they threatened to cut off Jersey's electricity supply. 

The Industries in question would include NHS, electricity supply, water, gas supply, oil supply, steel, communications. There is place, in my opinion, for private & public ownership to thrive alongside one another but certain fundamental businesses should not be owned privately & certainly not by overseas organisations. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dai Guevara Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 September 2021 at 2:32pm
By far the most immediate priority for a privatised company is to make a bigger, short term profit, for it's shareholders, than it's rivals. You need only look at the current (sic) carnage in the power supply industry to see where this logic leads. The large number of private companies competing with eachother (through state provided cables and pipes) on price. Their boards could not justify to the shareholders any storage of gas for a rainy day and when the price of gas on the market shot up they were bankrupted. I certainly don't think shareholders of those companies should be compensated -the greedy byggers took a gamble in the hope of making some easy money and lost. Similarly I hope that any further nationalisation of private corporations only entails compensation at the original share price, or none at all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 September 2021 at 2:42pm
Originally posted by Dai Guevara Dai Guevara wrote:

By far the most immediate priority for a privatised company is to make a bigger, short term profit, for it's shareholders, than it's rivals. You need only look at the current (sic) carnage in the power supply industry to see where this logic leads. The large number of private companies competing with eachother (through state provided cables and pipes) on price. Their boards could not justify to the shareholders any storage of gas for a rainy day and when the price of gas on the market shot up they were bankrupted. I certainly don't think shareholders of those companies should be compensated -the greedy byggers took a gamble in the hope of making some easy money and lost. Similarly I hope that any further nationalisation of private corporations only entails compensation at the original share price, or none at all.

I am with you 100% on the compensation issue. It is, in my opinion, one of the most ludicrous decisions by a British Government, when the Banks were bailed out in 2008/09 using taxpayers funds. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 September 2021 at 2:49pm
Originally posted by Dai Guevara Dai Guevara wrote:

By far the most immediate priority for a privatised company is to make a bigger, short term profit, for it's shareholders, than it's rivals. You need only look at the current (sic) carnage in the power supply industry to see where this logic leads. The large number of private companies competing with eachother (through state provided cables and pipes) on price. Their boards could not justify to the shareholders any storage of gas for a rainy day and when the price of gas on the market shot up they were bankrupted. I certainly don't think shareholders of those companies should be compensated -the greedy byggers took a gamble in the hope of making some easy money and lost. Similarly I hope that any further nationalisation of private corporations only entails compensation at the original share price, or none at all.
the issue is the companys that are left standing, the bigger more traditional companys would cost  a fortune to buy, it’s case of not being able to put the genie back jn the bottle. What we should have done is not privatise them in the first place. “Tell sid’ and all that other nonsense was a great pr campaign to sell us something we already owned!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 September 2021 at 3:06pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by Dai Guevara Dai Guevara wrote:

By far the most immediate priority for a privatised company is to make a bigger, short term profit, for it's shareholders, than it's rivals. You need only look at the current (sic) carnage in the power supply industry to see where this logic leads. The large number of private companies competing with eachother (through state provided cables and pipes) on price. Their boards could not justify to the shareholders any storage of gas for a rainy day and when the price of gas on the market shot up they were bankrupted. I certainly don't think shareholders of those companies should be compensated -the greedy byggers took a gamble in the hope of making some easy money and lost. Similarly I hope that any further nationalisation of private corporations only entails compensation at the original share price, or none at all.
the issue is the companys that are left standing, the bigger more traditional companys would cost  a fortune to buy, it’s case of not being able to put the genie back jn the bottle. What we should have done is not privatise them in the first place. “Tell sid’ and all that other nonsense was a great pr campaign to sell us something we already owned!

There is no rule as far as I am concerned that commits our Government to any level of compensation for any company. You are correct that some of the companies share prices today would be exorbitant. An option worth considering would be for instance electricity. Do not try to nationlise all suppliers just provide a nationally owned competitor. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 September 2021 at 5:05pm
If any govt just seized companys assests with no compensation no companys would ever invest there again. It would make them a financial pariah
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 September 2021 at 5:42pm
Originally posted by Dai Guevara Dai Guevara wrote:

By far the most immediate priority for a privatised company is to make a bigger, short term profit, for it's shareholders, than it's rivals. You need only look at the current (sic) carnage in the power supply industry to see where this logic leads. The large number of private companies competing with eachother (through state provided cables and pipes) on price. Their boards could not justify to the shareholders any storage of gas for a rainy day and when the price of gas on the market shot up they were bankrupted. I certainly don't think shareholders of those companies should be compensated -the greedy byggers took a gamble in the hope of making some easy money and lost. Similarly I hope that any further nationalisation of private corporations only entails compensation at the original share price, or none at all.

This is true and the tragedy of ‘08 was that the Banks were deemed too big to fail and bailed out. This is why most people believe, quite rightly, that the game is rigged in favour of big-business. 

But being pro-market is not the same as pro-business.

I find that many people who are far-left wing don’t make that distinction. 

Something like the EU is pro-business, but actually is anti-market because it makes lots of rules in that big businesses lobby for because they can afford to overcome them whereas small start-up competitors can’t.
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