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South Africa Selection.

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Sosban89 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sosban89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2021 at 12:19am
At the moment we have absolutely no clue who our best players are in a lot of positions, and unfortunately that's not because they are all world class. 

I personally think that Pivac should be focussing purely on the world cup, and by that I mean doing what Eddie Jones does and cuts some decent ageing players who aren't likely to be around, or at the top of their game come the world cup. 

e.g Jonathan Davies (and others). 

This allows for up and coming players to have more experience prior to the world cup.

however, I think Pivac feels the pressure of needing to win now to keep his job, so he can't afford to take those risks, at the detriment to Wales long term hopes. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2021 at 7:40am
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

In those conditions it was always a scrap. Wales scrapped very well.

At the end of the day we matched SA in all but the scrums. Unfortunately our fortunes went down in line with the numbers of scrums going up. We were pinged on their feed each time. The yardage you get from the ensuing penalty proved pivotal.

Echo all the sentiments … we found a class 7 last week, we found a new regular starting 2, 4 and 6 yesterday, with an very serviceable 8.
9 and 13 the big issues for us  squad wise at the moment allied to a solid set piece

Pretty big problems then. The good news is that our scrum will not come up against the same quality when we take on Australia who were given a tough time by the Scots yesterday. 
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2021 at 8:34am
Wow that South African scrum was a thing of beauty to watch.

Other than that we certainly fronted up & there were some huge collisions between both sets of players. Elias probably had his best game in national colours & Rowlands impressed. Couldn't really fault the back row. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2021 at 8:54am
Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Wow that South African scrum was a thing of beauty to watch.

Other than that we certainly fronted up & there were some huge collisions between both sets of players. Elias probably had his best game in national colours & Rowlands impressed. Couldn't really fault the back row. 



It is not new but Pivac really has to make his mind up on selection. I think its time to cut players who, in reality, will not be at their best for 2023 - AWJ, Ken & Foxy to start with. But they are still the best options I hear the response - that may be the case but without giving alternative younger players the chance to fill their boots how will he know? 

Already we have seen Rowlands & Ryan grow into their shirts this autumn; Basham & Wainwright have filled shirts previously held by Lions but only through injury. We continue to lack quality/depth at 9 - is box kicking really that difficult? Add in further deficiencies at 1/2/3/8/10/ & 13 & we seem to be going backwards unlike Ireland, Scotland & England who seem to have improved since the 6 nations through good coaching and brave selection. Some excellent match ups to come next weekend for Ireland, Scotland & England. One thing I will predict this far out is that Ireland will get a lot closer to the AB's than we did. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2021 at 8:59am
Agreed there GPR, how Rob Evans isn't in the squad ahead of Carre is beyond me. I am hoping that one or two of the Ospreys hookers will be involved in the 6 nations. Tighthead wise I am not overly concerned about because WGJ hasn't become a bad scrummager over night & we have Samson waiting in the wings.

We need a bit more depth in the engine room but Rowlands likes hitting rucks the way Jake used to. One thing I will say I noticed during the game, & was picked up by Alex Corbisiero on Twitter were our locks weren't tight at scrum time & this meant that Wainwright kept slipping up & going between them rather than having a solid base to plant his shoulders on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2021 at 11:52am
I understand planning for 2023 but I also think it’s futile. You can plan for 2023 and then end up playing the best team in the quarter final and you’re out, 4 years of planning gone.

You need to win games and tournaments between the world cups as well, Pivac has done once which is good but the aim has to be to better Gatlands record vs these Southern Hemisphere giants and try and win the 6N every attempt.

If Foxy is the best 13 then pick him, no point throwing someone who doesn’t work there in hope they’ll improve by 2023 - that’s just giving the opposition time to study their weaknesses.

For me South Africa winning the RWC in 2019 proved that you don’t need a 4 year prep time to win the World Cup. That group had 2 years and went from number 9 in the world to number 1.

Try and win every test match, if AWJ, Ken, Tipuric are fit and the best in their position then they play imo - too much experimentation devalues the jersey
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2021 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

I understand planning for 2023 but I also think it’s futile. You can plan for 2023 and then end up playing the best team in the quarter final and you’re out, 4 years of planning gone.

You need to win games and tournaments between the world cups as well, Pivac has done once which is good but the aim has to be to better Gatlands record vs these Southern Hemisphere giants and try and win the 6N every attempt.

If Foxy is the best 13 then pick him, no point throwing someone who doesn’t work there in hope they’ll improve by 2023 - that’s just giving the opposition time to study their weaknesses.

For me South Africa winning the RWC in 2019 proved that you don’t need a 4 year prep time to win the World Cup. That group had 2 years and went from number 9 in the world to number 1.

Try and win every test match, if AWJ, Ken, Tipuric are fit and the best in their position then they play imo - too much experimentation devalues the jersey

I agree with you but only to a point - certainly try to win every tournament but Autumn & Summer games are about giving players a chance at, as everyone agrees, a level which can not be replicated. I would argue that Rowlands is already as affective as AWJ currently is; likewise Ryan & Ken. Foxy is only at 13 because North is injured so he probably doesn't count but we should have a plan B for when North is injured and that is not Tompkins. 

You correctly quote South Africa but the difference I would suggest was that they identified two years out a squad and stuck with it giving players 15-20 games to get combinations working and gain experience. If Pivac has done that then I would suggest he has got it wrong if he thinks AWJ, Ken & Foxy will be the best 2, 4 or 13 available by 2023. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2021 at 12:47pm
If north gets fit odds are he will be first choice 13 however i’m not convinced on his defence there. We are still relying on gatlands core in fact only lrz has really nailed down a place among the new caps since pivac took over.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2021 at 1:00pm
you cant have a blanket policy on blooding new players....Any team is always in constant transition and yes its good to develop new talent. But its a delicate balance and we are not as blessed as the other top tier nations with depth. The biggest gripe on the weekend was substitutions for the sake of it, biggar being a prime case in point...Selection too no scott in the squad no centre replacement ? also wheres sheedy atm he us surely the number 1/2 with biggar isnt he?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2021 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

You correctly quote South Africa but the difference I would suggest was that they identified two years out a squad and stuck with it giving players 15-20 games to get combinations working and gain experience. If Pivac has done that then I would suggest he has got it wrong if he thinks AWJ, Ken & Foxy will be the best 2, 4 or 13 available by 2023. 

I would guess that AWJ will still be one of the top 3 locks in Wales in 2023, likewise I think Ken will still be in the top 3 hookers come 2023. 

Remember both these guys could very well do a job coming off the bench as finishers who only play 20minutes every week.

I think Victor Matfield was 37, during the 2015 RWC and came off the bench in the Semi-Final/3rd place playoff. Obvs he was a world class line out operator so had an obvious role but I think AWJ offers more than that for Wales.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2021 at 2:48pm
Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

You correctly quote South Africa but the difference I would suggest was that they identified two years out a squad and stuck with it giving players 15-20 games to get combinations working and gain experience. If Pivac has done that then I would suggest he has got it wrong if he thinks AWJ, Ken & Foxy will be the best 2, 4 or 13 available by 2023. 

I would guess that AWJ will still be one of the top 3 locks in Wales in 2023, likewise I think Ken will still be in the top 3 hookers come 2023. 

Remember both these guys could very well do a job coming off the bench as finishers who only play 20minutes every week.

I think Victor Matfield was 37, during the 2015 RWC and came off the bench in the Semi-Final/3rd place playoff. Obvs he was a world class line out operator so had an obvious role but I think AWJ offers more than that for Wales.

Oh if it were that simple. You may be able to get away with one member of dad's army on the bench but not 4/5. Also it doesn't always go to script i.e. final 20 minutes - what happens if they are required in the 5th minute. I just feel it is a sad indictment of your strength in depth & succession planning if you are in that position. On the subject of AWJ I think Pivac has talked himself into selecting him come what may for 2023 - fortunately AWJ will probably know if he is up to it himslef and may save Pivac's blushes. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SA14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2021 at 7:19pm
Ken ruled out for the remainder of the internationals. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimmywilde Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2021 at 7:48pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

You correctly quote South Africa but the difference I would suggest was that they identified two years out a squad and stuck with it giving players 15-20 games to get combinations working and gain experience. If Pivac has done that then I would suggest he has got it wrong if he thinks AWJ, Ken & Foxy will be the best 2, 4 or 13 available by 2023. 

I would guess that AWJ will still be one of the top 3 locks in Wales in 2023, likewise I think Ken will still be in the top 3 hookers come 2023. 

Remember both these guys could very well do a job coming off the bench as finishers who only play 20minutes every week.

I think Victor Matfield was 37, during the 2015 RWC and came off the bench in the Semi-Final/3rd place playoff. Obvs he was a world class line out operator so had an obvious role but I think AWJ offers more than that for Wales.

Oh if it were that simple. You may be able to get away with one member of dad's army on the bench but not 4/5. Also it doesn't always go to script i.e. final 20 minutes - what happens if they are required in the 5th minute. I just feel it is a sad indictment of your strength in depth & succession planning if you are in that position. On the subject of AWJ I think Pivac has talked himself into selecting him come what may for 2023 - fortunately AWJ will probably know if he is up to it himslef and may save Pivac's blushes. 
dyniol only mentioned two players not '4/5'.
I wouldn't be surprised if the two he mentioned were still among our best options in 2023. Not guaranteed but not impossible. And like you said they'll know themselves if they are up to it or not.
They have played about 20 mins between them this campaign so plenty of opportunities for others. 
Someone mentioned two years being enough time to build a squad and I tend to agree. Pivac isn't looking for 33 new players. 
Just my opinion, of course.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2021 at 8:18pm
Originally posted by jimmywilde jimmywilde wrote:

Someone mentioned two years being enough time to build a squad and I tend to agree. Pivac isn't looking for 33 new players. 
Just my opinion, of course.

SA in 2019, but also Wales in 2011 I seem to remember we had a brand new crop of players who’d played v few games before that tournament. Many of them household names now. Faletau, Foxy, Warburton, Priestland etc 

Those 4 wouldn’t have been ready for top-level international rugby in 2009 but they were two years later. 

This time last year LRZ wasn’t ready for international rugby, but all of a sudden he was. 

Obviously you can’t rely on a group of 20 year-olds coming good but you can overcomplicate things by looking too far ahead
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eastern outpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2021 at 8:40pm
Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Originally posted by jimmywilde jimmywilde wrote:

Someone mentioned two years being enough time to build a squad and I tend to agree. Pivac isn't looking for 33 new players. 
Just my opinion, of course.

SA in 2019, but also Wales in 2011 I seem to remember we had a brand new crop of players who’d played v few games before that tournament. Many of them household names now. Faletau, Foxy, Warburton, Priestland etc 

Those 4 wouldn’t have been ready for top-level international rugby in 2009 but they were two years later. 

This time last year LRZ wasn’t ready for international rugby, but all of a sudden he was. 

Obviously you can’t rely on a group of 20 year-olds coming good but you can overcomplicate things by looking too far ahead
I still think that Carré for 2923 is a prospect. Wink

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If that fails, there’s always attack of the clones.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimmywilde Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2021 at 8:48pm
Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Originally posted by jimmywilde jimmywilde wrote:

Someone mentioned two years being enough time to build a squad and I tend to agree. Pivac isn't looking for 33 new players. 
Just my opinion, of course.

SA in 2019, but also Wales in 2011 I seem to remember we had a brand new crop of players who’d played v few games before that tournament. Many of them household names now. Faletau, Foxy, Warburton, Priestland etc 

Those 4 wouldn’t have been ready for top-level international rugby in 2009 but they were two years later. 

This time last year LRZ wasn’t ready for international rugby, but all of a sudden he was. 

Obviously you can’t rely on a group of 20 year-olds coming good but you can overcomplicate things by looking too far ahead
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If only Tshiunza can do the same. Here's hoping. And hoping.
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