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Taxation & Public Sevices

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GPR - Rochester View Drop Down
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    Posted: 17 March 2023 at 7:05am
I have been unable to clear from my mind something which my old sparring partner totallybiasedscarlet posted many months ago. I have absolutely no reason to disagree with his statement which was along the lines of - the overall tax burden per capita in the Uk is some 7% less than France/Germany & that would equate to £150 billion per year extra in the UK's coffers. 

That is a staggering statistic & begs the million dollar question of how, for the huge benefit of the less well off in our society, does any government sell that to the tax paying public and get elected? Now for me to quite blandly say I would be prepared to pay my share would be unfair as my major tax paying years are behind me. What do younger members with young families, mortgages etc think. 
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ladram View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ladram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2023 at 7:32am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

I have been unable to clear from my mind something which my old sparring partner totallybiasedscarlet posted many months ago. I have absolutely no reason to disagree with his statement which was along the lines of - the overall tax burden per capita in the Uk is some 7% less than France/Germany & that would equate to £150 billion per year extra in the UK's coffers. 

That is a staggering statistic & begs the million dollar question of how, for the huge benefit of the less well off in our society, does any government sell that to the tax paying public and get elected? Now for me to quite blandly say I would be prepared to pay my share would be unfair as my major tax paying years are behind me. What do younger members with young families, mortgages etc think. 
They do it Gareth because they don't have to sell it because we just roll over and accept it the papers were full the other week of reports that people were up in arms because some councils were going to up the tax by the maximum of 5% yet in Carmarthenshire ours goes up by 6.8% without a whimper Welsh water have put theirs up by around 10% yet we just take it on the chin and carry on France has seen riots and strikes because the pension age is rising to 64 whereas ours is 66 ,They do it because they know they can get away with it.Angry
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Kentexile View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kentexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2023 at 9:01am
“I have been unable to clear from my mind something which my old sparring partner totallybiasedscarlet posted many months ago. I have absolutely no reason to disagree with his statement which was along the lines of - the overall tax burden per capita in the Uk is some 7% less than France/Germany & that would equate to £150 billion per year extra in the UK's coffers. 

That is a staggering statistic & begs the million dollar question of how, for the huge benefit of the less well off in our society, does any government sell that to the tax paying public and get elected? Now for me to quite blandly say I would be prepared to pay my share would be unfair as my major tax paying years are behind me. What do younger members with young families, mortgages etc think. “

The problem is with like for like comparisons. Income tax and VAT equivalents are broadly  similar in the UK , France and Germany. In France the big difference is around social care contributions which are higher than in the Uk but give very generous state benefits so the state pension can be up to 50% of final salary which can make it cheaper than paying into private schemes in the UK. There are also generous unemployment benefits- up to 65% of pay. In Germany there are again higher social charges with specific % charges for the state pension, health , unemployment and care insurance which give better payouts than in the UK. In Germany there is still a church levy of 8-9% of income for all catholics protestants and members of the Jewish faith.It is possible to opt out but doing so can restrict  access to excellent subsidised childcare and  some of the best schools and care facilities .There is also a 5.5% solidarity tax to cover the cost of reunification which is increasingly seen as a bit of a government slush fund.

So  more money comes in from overall taxation in France and Germany but more money goes out directly on pensions social care etc .
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GPR - Rochester View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2023 at 9:08am
Originally posted by Kentexile Kentexile wrote:

“I have been unable to clear from my mind something which my old sparring partner totallybiasedscarlet posted many months ago. I have absolutely no reason to disagree with his statement which was along the lines of - the overall tax burden per capita in the Uk is some 7% less than France/Germany & that would equate to £150 billion per year extra in the UK's coffers. 

That is a staggering statistic & begs the million dollar question of how, for the huge benefit of the less well off in our society, does any government sell that to the tax paying public and get elected? Now for me to quite blandly say I would be prepared to pay my share would be unfair as my major tax paying years are behind me. What do younger members with young families, mortgages etc think. “

The problem is with like for like comparisons. Income tax and VAT equivalents are broadly  similar in the UK , France and Germany. In France the big difference is around social care contributions which are higher than in the Uk but give very generous state benefits so the state pension can be up to 50% of final salary which can make it cheaper than paying into private schemes in the UK. There are also generous unemployment benefits- up to 65% of pay. In Germany there are again higher social charges with specific % charges for the state pension, health , unemployment and care insurance which give better payouts than in the UK. In Germany there is still a church levy of 8-9% of income for all catholics protestants and members of the Jewish faith.It is possible to opt out but doing so can restrict  access to excellent subsidised childcare and  some of the best schools and care facilities .There is also a 5.5% solidarity tax to cover the cost of reunification which is increasingly seen as a bit of a government slush fund.

So  more money comes in from overall taxation in France and Germany but more money goes out directly on pensions social care etc .

Many thanks Kentexile - very informative. 
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dr_martinov View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2023 at 11:42am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

I have been unable to clear from my mind something which my old sparring partner totallybiasedscarlet posted many months ago. I have absolutely no reason to disagree with his statement which was along the lines of - the overall tax burden per capita in the Uk is some 7% less than France/Germany & that would equate to £150 billion per year extra in the UK's coffers. 

That is a staggering statistic & begs the million dollar question of how, for the huge benefit of the less well off in our society, does any government sell that to the tax paying public and get elected? Now for me to quite blandly say I would be prepared to pay my share would be unfair as my major tax paying years are behind me. What do younger members with young families, mortgages etc think. 

How they sell that is they either never mention things such as you point out, and let's face it most of the UK have little awareness or interest in what is going on in other countries (perhaps part of being an island nation?), plus invest vast sums of money (usually donated from rich business backers) into propaganda, spin and targeted advertising to win votes in key seats; this is supported by our FPTP voting system that puts off many even voting in the first place, particularly younger people, there being two dominant parties, generally conservative public views, often a low political education/interest and a tribal "blue/red" political divide. "Growth of the economy" is prioritised, whilst obscuring what this actually means and how little of this is fed back into benefiting the majority. Tax (and even public services and the public sector) is usually spun as an inherently bad thing, even to the point of people who take advantage of things taxes pay for are actually a "drain on society" and so on. Political campaigns by the right are often run on emotional issues, immigration being a standard one, Brexit before that, and are usually as simple as possible, backed by a large PR machine. Current trends are invoking fear and promoting nationalism to achieve this, previously it was stability (wonder why they changed? Truss anyone?). Anything that starts to get complicated or, heaven forbid, involve numbers, is avoided or overly simplified, e.g. "immigrants are a drain on your taxes". And then the majority of the UK media is completely onside with most of what I outline above and, in particular, rarely challenges Conservative politicians to the same degree as others. Quick example, we literally had Hunt claiming that the Conservatives are the party of low-tax while at the same time he was raising corporation tax from 19% to 25%. No exaggeration: This is Orwellian stuff right here. We all know a Labour Chancellor would be destroyed by the press for this. And finally, as Ladram points out, British people take it again and again in a stereotypically stoic fashion so there is no real fear of repercussion as they know they'll be back in power in a few years time anyway.


Edited by dr_martinov - 17 March 2023 at 11:46am
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roy munster View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2023 at 1:11pm
The first rule of economics is people on the lower income levels spend more of their income which creates a multiplier effect on the economy...The top 1% biggest earners tend to spend proportionately less of their money, thus slowing up the economy. Sadly we are stuck in the latter scenario. billions being sucked out of our economy and public services. We as a nation have sold out to big corprations, we are better off supporting sme's they pay more taxes, more tariffs, more license fees..They stay longer and create a far more authentic specific specialised tailored service for their particular area. Unlike the mass homogenized bland brands of the corporate monoliths. Lest we forget that a whopping 14% of the worlds greenhouse gasses comes from cows, due to the mass over production of animal produce to make the trillions of profits for these retail giants. Madness. 

ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
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lofty evans View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lofty evans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2023 at 2:37pm
They have crunched the numbers and we are all paying 4 p in the pound extra tax from this budget. They are robbers at a time the Country is struggling.  Unbelievable. 

Unt said we have to pay for their eff ups. Lovely.

In 1972, Roy Bergiers scored that try and said "that was for you lofty"

"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"
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