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dr_martinov View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2021 at 9:09am
I bet those mesolithic hunter-gathers are still a bit irked they lost their land to the invading Celts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2021 at 10:45am
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

I bet those mesolithic hunter-gathers are still a bit irked they lost their land to the invading Celts.

LOL 
 

The invasion hypothesis has largely been debunked. Yes some settlers but it was mainly cultural and language changes that took place.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2021 at 10:49am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Originally posted by Dai Guevara Dai Guevara wrote:

As an imperialist power that invaded, plundered and enslaved so many less well armed peoples, and then made the conquered learn English (so that the racist conquerors didn't have to learn the native language to order them around) what is now happening is a supreme irony.

A niche take but good to hear all views expressed on the forum LOL

A very good programme worth watching here: https://www.channel4.com/programmes/empire-state-of-mind

It’s telling that he’s interested in the legacy of empire given he went to a grammar school. Empire looms larger in the consciousness of elites than the median voter. 

I’ve always been surprised by how much non-Brits mention empire in political conversations, yet it plays almost absolutely no role in political conversations in the U.K.

I think to most people because empire is something that happened abroad, there is just not a lot people can relate to. 

He does point it out that virtually no school kids learn about empire, and most have no idea about what it achieved, the atrocities and why the U.K. lost its colonies. Seems to suggest that it plays some sort of shadowy role in the U.K. consciousness via a sort of cultural osmosis. But again, I think that’s true of elites and less true of lower-middle classes.

The term little englander was originally a disparaging term made by elites to ridicule lower-classes who thought the U.K. should focus on its own affairs. Part of the way his doc is made made me think the same process is going on today with people who want the empire to be more salient than it actually is.

Two things I think are rarely addressed about empires is often the people doing it weren’t just inspired by racism and plunder, they much much more religious than we can understand today. 

Then the other being competition with the other empires, notably the Spanish and the French, to some extent the Dutch and the Portuguese. 

There was a moral dimension to it (spreading the word of God) and a competitive drive to do it (if we don’t conquer India the French will and they’ll invade us next) 

To some extent that is still playing out today, just in a much pettier way

I agree in part but I took something different from the programme. I think that the empire is salient. RR immediately responded with a defence of it. GPR also to an extent. It is still a lived history for some. It certainly was for my parent's and grand parents generation who witnessed its end. It's salient on two points. How those who identify as British (see Richard Wyn Jones' recent work) view themselves. Why is Britain such a target destination for immigration. The programme had very pertinent points to make on that.

The first question TBS about being a target destination for immigrants is to ask are we? What % of total immigrants who enter the EU end up in Calais attempting to access the UK. 

The relevance of the question depends on who you ask. What is the public impression? The programme certainly asserts that a large proportion of immigration through the 20thC is directly linked to Empire. The presenter uses the phrase "Citizens of the British Empire." It's a case really of hearing the voice of those immigrants in order to understand their reasons I'd say.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Dai Guevara Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2021 at 12:00pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

No empire no nhs no free schooling no dhss etc our first world lifestyle is based on the wealth generated from that era. 


As England's first colony and an exploited nation, that played a huge and now unappreciated role in the industrial revolution, don't you think that we created a fair bit of wealth ourselves, (only to now find little visible evidence of the great industries that quickly turned farming communities to heavily populated industrial landscapes, and that to a degree, made further overseas conquests possible). Unfortunately like the rest of the colonies we were not in political control and were unable to develop our economy to take advantage of our hard work and sacrifice.
Wales has always been a far more egalitarian society than England and those plunder based use of riches that you quote have in fact been Welsh priorities and   some pioneered by Welshmen, I'm sure we could have gone ahead with them if we'd have concentrated on development instead of plunder and the nonsense upper class/royalty appearances that the English so love.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2021 at 12:15pm
There is no doubt all the major financial nations have a shady past and most have got their wealth through pretty awful means. The uk is no different. I tend not to dwell on it too much the sins of the father etc. As a rule the vast majority of the uk population lead a very good lifestyle if that’s down to the ill deeds of our fore fathers or more accuratley their ruling elite so be it. What we need to do is focus on the here and now and how we help out those in need today, a fairer dispensation of wealth both in the uk and globally would seem the sensible starting point btw i don’t defend the empire i’m just realistic as despite it’s moral awfulness the uk and the uk population benefited from it. 

Edited by RR1972 - 01 December 2021 at 12:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2021 at 12:26pm
You can't change history - don't apologise for it, learn from it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2021 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

There is no doubt all the major financial nations have a shady past and most have got their wealth through pretty awful means. The uk is no different. I tend not to dwell on it too much the sins of the father etc. As a rule the vast majority of the uk population lead a very good lifestyle if that’s down to the ill deeds of our fore fathers or more accuratley their ruling elite so be it. What we need to do is focus on the here and now and how we help out those in need today, a fairer dispensation of wealth both in the uk and globally would seem the sensible starting point btw i don’t defend the empire i’m just realistic as despite it’s moral awfulness the uk and the uk population benefited from it. 

I understand where you're coming from in the sense that we're powerless to change the past. Where I differ is that I believe the past lives in the present through our collective knowledge and perceptions. If that past or the perception of it is influencing events in the present then it would be wise for us to understand it if we want to set a path for a better future.

In terms of the material influence on wealth, "so be it" doesn't sit easily with me. I can't pretend that I have all the answers for this but I have no confidence in the political establishment or the wealth that sits behind it in plain sight in reforming the state or our economic systems to bring about a fair distribution of wealth or even a share in political power. There is far too much vested interest in the status quo and IMHO it is a key driver in the events that led the UK to Brexit. The UK has an astronomical differential in wealth. The GINI index for the UK is awful. I don't believe it's accidental or that there's any inevitability to our circumstances. Hand on heart, I love Wales and being Welsh. I'm completely relaxed about being British and European. But I genuinely cannot bear the UK state as currently constituted. It just stinks as a system of governance. We so badly need reform and IMHO that reform is to dissolve the union and build a new confederation of sovereign British states.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2021 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

You can't change history - don't apologise for it, learn from it. 

Yes learn. Apologise? - when it matters to people. There's no wrong in that. But it is our actions as a people now that count and we should do what we can collectively with other nations to build a better world. All in bois, all in!
"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dai Guevara Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2021 at 1:17pm
All we seem to have learned is that the UK no longer has the resources for a repeat performance of our colonial days, so instead we hang on to the coat-tails of the self described "exceptional nation" as they go about pounding any weak nation that tries to follow a different path to neo-liberal capitalism or just wants to assert some sovereignty.
After the destruction of the likes of Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan we then wonder why some of the victims would feel that their families would be safer and better off here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2021 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by Dai Guevara Dai Guevara wrote:

All we seem to have learned is that the UK no longer has the resources for a repeat performance of our colonial days, so instead we hang on to the coat-tails of the self described "exceptional nation" as they go about pounding any weak nation that tries to follow a different path to neo-liberal capitalism or just wants to assert some sovereignty.
After the destruction of the likes of Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan we then wonder why some of the victims would feel that their families would be safer and better off here.

I remember a vox pop on BBC News around the time of the referendum. "We used to have an empire. I think it was a good thing. I think we should have one again." Exceptionalism is without a doubt a feature of Brexit - not for all but for a great many.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2021 at 1:43pm
Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

You can't change history - don't apologise for it, learn from it. 

Yes learn. Apologise? - when it matters to people. There's no wrong in that. But it is our actions as a people now that count and we should do what we can collectively with other nations to build a better world. All in bois, all in!

Who would be doing the apologising?

There are examples like in that documentary like where colonialists stole things, like statues from Benin. That’s fine if the country or culture want them returned, and countries like Benin or Nigeria have the capacity to safeguard them, then it’s reasonable to return them. 

But I’m not sure it’s in anyone’s court to apologise - the guy making that doc was as much a beneficiary of the British empire as anyone else - should he be apologising? Likewise the guy related to Clive of India - should he be apologising, what for? The average UKIP voter, should they be apologising - who to and what for? 

It’s a bit of a pointless exercise to apologise for actions you had no say in.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2021 at 2:01pm
Originally posted by Dai Guevara Dai Guevara wrote:

All we seem to have learned is that the UK no longer has the resources for a repeat performance of our colonial days, so instead we hang on to the coat-tails of the self described "exceptional nation" as they go about pounding any weak nation that tries to follow a different path to neo-liberal capitalism or just wants to assert some sovereignty.
After the destruction of the likes of Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan we then wonder why some of the victims would feel that their families would be safer and better off here.
interesting take and not without some merit or truth. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2021 at 2:03pm
Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

You can't change history - don't apologise for it, learn from it. 

Yes learn. Apologise? - when it matters to people. There's no wrong in that. But it is our actions as a people now that count and we should do what we can collectively with other nations to build a better world. All in bois, all in!

Who would be doing the apologising?

There are examples like in that documentary like where colonialists stole things, like statues from Benin. That’s fine if the country or culture want them returned, and countries like Benin or Nigeria have the capacity to safeguard them, then it’s reasonable to return them. 

But I’m not sure it’s in anyone’s court to apologise - the guy making that doc was as much a beneficiary of the British empire as anyone else - should he be apologising? Likewise the guy related to Clive of India - should he be apologising, what for? The average UKIP voter, should they be apologising - who to and what for? 

It’s a bit of a pointless exercise to apologise for actions you had no say in.

The actual physical act of apologising was not really what I meant - more feeling like one should apologise. As you rightly say for what? Nothing to do with me so why should I apologise. Now Iraq is different - a Government which came into power during my lifetime lied and continually distorted the truth about WMD so that doesn't sit well with me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2021 at 2:38pm
Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

You can't change history - don't apologise for it, learn from it. 

Yes learn. Apologise? - when it matters to people. There's no wrong in that. But it is our actions as a people now that count and we should do what we can collectively with other nations to build a better world. All in bois, all in!

Who would be doing the apologising?

There are examples like in that documentary like where colonialists stole things, like statues from Benin. That’s fine if the country or culture want them returned, and countries like Benin or Nigeria have the capacity to safeguard them, then it’s reasonable to return them. 

But I’m not sure it’s in anyone’s court to apologise - the guy making that doc was as much a beneficiary of the British empire as anyone else - should he be apologising? Likewise the guy related to Clive of India - should he be apologising, what for? The average UKIP voter, should they be apologising - who to and what for? 

It’s a bit of a pointless exercise to apologise for actions you had no say in.

Government on behalf of the state would seem sensible. To my mind what matters more is how our state engages on the international stage. What can be done now to improve matters across the board? An official apology in that context can go a long way diplomatically to opening up constructive avenues of cooperation and assisting other states in their development.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2021 at 2:41pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

You can't change history - don't apologise for it, learn from it. 

Yes learn. Apologise? - when it matters to people. There's no wrong in that. But it is our actions as a people now that count and we should do what we can collectively with other nations to build a better world. All in bois, all in!

Who would be doing the apologising?

There are examples like in that documentary like where colonialists stole things, like statues from Benin. That’s fine if the country or culture want them returned, and countries like Benin or Nigeria have the capacity to safeguard them, then it’s reasonable to return them. 

But I’m not sure it’s in anyone’s court to apologise - the guy making that doc was as much a beneficiary of the British empire as anyone else - should he be apologising? Likewise the guy related to Clive of India - should he be apologising, what for? The average UKIP voter, should they be apologising - who to and what for? 

It’s a bit of a pointless exercise to apologise for actions you had no say in.

The actual physical act of apologising was not really what I meant - more feeling like one should apologise. As you rightly say for what? Nothing to do with me so why should I apologise. Now Iraq is different - a Government which came into power during my lifetime lied and continually distorted the truth about WMD so that doesn't sit well with me.

A good start would be to hold people to account for the dodgy dossier and ascertain the legality of the use of force on that basis. Should keep the Hague busy for a while!
"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2021 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

You can't change history - don't apologise for it, learn from it. 

Yes learn. Apologise? - when it matters to people. There's no wrong in that. But it is our actions as a people now that count and we should do what we can collectively with other nations to build a better world. All in bois, all in!

Who would be doing the apologising?

There are examples like in that documentary like where colonialists stole things, like statues from Benin. That’s fine if the country or culture want them returned, and countries like Benin or Nigeria have the capacity to safeguard them, then it’s reasonable to return them. 

But I’m not sure it’s in anyone’s court to apologise - the guy making that doc was as much a beneficiary of the British empire as anyone else - should he be apologising? Likewise the guy related to Clive of India - should he be apologising, what for? The average UKIP voter, should they be apologising - who to and what for? 

It’s a bit of a pointless exercise to apologise for actions you had no say in.

The actual physical act of apologising was not really what I meant - more feeling like one should apologise. As you rightly say for what? Nothing to do with me so why should I apologise. Now Iraq is different - a Government which came into power during my lifetime lied and continually distorted the truth about WMD so that doesn't sit well with me.

A good start would be to hold people to account for the dodgy dossier and ascertain the legality of the use of force on that basis. Should keep the Hague busy for a while!

Indeed - I am afraid when it comes to illegal acts by some World leaders being held to account seems non negotiable. I certainly don't believe that Blair is/was an evil man but he got the Iraq war completely wrong. His punishment, not withstanding his conscience, should be evident for all to see along with his puppet master Bush. 
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