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RR1972 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2022 at 12:00am
Your mixing up logic and the people who vote in the uk
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2022 at 12:02am
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Your mixing up logic and the people who vote in the uk

LOL Damit, I knew there was a flaw LOL
"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2022 at 12:19am
Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Your mixing up logic and the people who vote in the uk

LOL Damit, I knew there was a flaw LOL
serioysly voting shpuld have an iq requirement!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2022 at 8:02am
Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Your mixing up logic and the people who vote in the uk

LOL Damit, I knew there was a flaw LOL

I can advise you TBS that is not the only flaw in your argument. Putting the current cost of living increases at the door of Brexit is really stretching credibility to the limit. You may have noticed since early 2020 that we, along with the rest of the World, have been suffering at the hands of Covid. The damage to economies all over the world has been catastrophic. The Uk economy is growing as much if not faster than all other European economies so to paint the repercussions of Brexit as you are is incorrect. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2022 at 8:29am
Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Comment from Heseltine here. "If Boris goes, Brexit goes." Interesting line of thought. I'll mull that one over I think. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/16/panic-boris-johnson-allies-brexit-unravelling-michael-heseltine
that’s wishful thiking on “tarzans” behalf

Dunno. Not sure it's as clear cut as he suggests. But I do wonder if there's some truth in it. Johnson was instrumental in the Tories gaining their majority in 2019. He did it off the back of two big policy promises - "Get Brexit done" and "Levelling up." Now we have a cost of living crisis that's being intensified by the costs of Brexit, with taxes and poverty going up, undermining any notion of "levelling up." On top of that, Johnson and his government have proven themselves craven (Afghanistan), corrupt (Covid contracts), liars (Party gate) and incompetent (where do I start?). The electorate can be pretty unforgiving. Will the electorate begin to feel that they've been led up the garden path and let down? 

Maybe. Just maybe ...

Quite why we are hanging on the words of a past it ex Tory cabinet minister who has never forgiven his party for not naming him leader I fail to understand. If Boris was guilty of blinkered belief in Brexit then Tarzan was equally guilty of Euromania. The reality is that under both Tory & Labour leadership repeated attempts to reform EU governance fell on deaf ears. There was a time when it could have been saved with members being allowed more self governance but the French/German axis driving the EU towards greater control from Brussels/Strasbourg scuppered those chances.

We now have dreams of an EU army supplementing individual country forces and NATO with all the costs associated with that added to the bureaucratic centralised constraints placed on individual member states which contributed, in part, to the demise of our once great Steel Industry. Add in the attempt to superimpose the European Court over individual national legislatures & you arrive at where we are at. 

Is it all too late - of course not. Who knows what the future holds; who knows what leadership of the EU & GB will look like in years to come. The referendum was a snapshot in history which can't be changed but different outcomes given different options are perfectly feasible in the future. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2022 at 9:11am
Sorry, why blame the EU for the decline of the steel industry when deindustrialisation was already being pursued by UK govts and subsequently accelerated by Thatcher who was influenced by Patrick Minford?Again, this is the right wing making a bogeyman out of the EU. Funny how Germany has a strong manufacturing sector. Ours was sold out to asset strippers on the altar of "the City." 

As for a European defence alliance ... good idea in the current climate! A Nationalist USA increasingly looking to home, an ascendant China and resurgent Russia pushing their weight around. Strategically sensible. That was a piece of scaremongering I always thought was ridiculous. Yes, let's have a European defence alliance ... we blydi need one! 

On EU law ... again, this is right-wing scapegoating. It was never imposed on the UK. The UK was a participant in making that law. We always had a choice. We exercised it and left. 

All along, all we've had is the hard-right profiteering UK establishment creating scapegoats and bogeymen, whipping up public sentiment with the goal of influencing the public into an act of great self-harm, all so that they can impose their own economic ideologies on the UK. Why? So that they can get even richer. 

Brexit? Bravo. Slow hand clap from me. The only silver lining is that it might well mean the end of the UK. My god I hope so. What a rotten, cesspool of a State. The sooner Wales is out of it and has a mature relationship with Europe, the better.
"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2022 at 9:18am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Your mixing up logic and the people who vote in the uk

LOL Damit, I knew there was a flaw LOL

I can advise you TBS that is not the only flaw in your argument. Putting the current cost of living increases at the door of Brexit is really stretching credibility to the limit. You may have noticed since early 2020 that we, along with the rest of the World, have been suffering at the hands of Covid. The damage to economies all over the world has been catastrophic. The Uk economy is growing as much if not faster than all other European economies so to paint the repercussions of Brexit as you are is incorrect. 

That's wrong GPR. Your bias is showing through. Data shows the UK economy fell harder and is further behind pre pandemic levels than other economies. It has also been shown that Brexit is exacerbating inflation, bringing in additional costs on top of those all countries are experiencing. You are also mischaracterising what I said (and you say I'm stretching credibility). Brexit isn't soley responsible - it is making things worse. 
"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kentexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2022 at 9:37am
The European court point is an interesting one . The media regularly mixed up the European Court of Justice and the European Court of Human Rights. The ECJ deals with claims that a member state is breaching EU law.
When the UK was a member we had on average less than 5 cases a year going recently   mainly on environmental matters around water/ sewerage treatment where we weren’t meeting EU standards.That of course no longer applies.
The European Court of Human Rights isn’t an institution of the EU and enforces the European Convention of Human Rights  This has 47 members including the  27 countries in the EU and still incudes the UK and the Uk recently led on the most recent changes to the convention in Protocol 15 which was looking to make the Court procedures more efficient

On growth then there is an element of lies damn lies and statistics. Our GDP fell hardest during 2020 so the relatively strong growth is in part a recovery from previous weakness. Overall on comparative real performance  in GDP over the COVID period the strongest performers have been The US and France with positive growth. The Eurozone comes in at 0% the UK has a small overall  reduction of -0.4 % with Germany being hardest hit out the major industrial nations at -1.5%
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2022 at 9:37am
War with russia and china will make brexit meaningless!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2022 at 9:42am
Originally posted by Kentexile Kentexile wrote:

The European court point is an interesting one . The media regularly mixed up the European Court of Justice and the European Court of Human Rights. The ECJ deals with claims that a member state is breaching EU law.
When the UK was a member we had on average less than 5 cases a year going recently   mainly on environmental matters around water/ sewerage treatment where we weren’t meeting EU standards.That of course no longer applies.
The European Court of Human Rights isn’t an institution of the EU and enforces the European Convention of Human Rights  This has 47 members including the  27 countries in the EU and still incudes the UK and the Uk recently led on the most recent changes to the convention in Protocol 15 which was looking to make the Court procedures more efficient

On growth then there is an element of lies damn lies and statistics. Our GDP fell hardest during 2020 so the relatively strong growth is in part a recovery from previous weakness. Overall on comparative real performance  in GDP over the COVID period the strongest performers have been The US and France with positive growth. The Eurozone comes in at 0% the UK has a small overall  reduction of -0.4 % with Germany being hardest hit out the major industrial nations at -1.5%

Thank you for that Kent. Those are the figures I'd seen too. Your comment on the ECJ/ECHR is illuminating too. This is what I mean about people being whipped up and a scapegoat being made of the EU. It was never the bogeyman the Brexit campaign made it out to be. The UK electorate has been duped - all too easily. But being that this is a democracy, people will simply have to learn from their mistakes.


Edited by totallybiasedscarlet - 19 February 2022 at 9:49am
"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2022 at 9:52am
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

War with russia and china will make brexit meaningless!

Well, European collectivism is a good thing for a variety of reasons. I can only imagine that Putin will see Brexit as a political positive from his perspective ... even a small strategic gain. Sowing the seeds of discontent and all that.
"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2022 at 10:01am
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

War with russia and china will make brexit meaningless!

If the UK declares war on those two unsupported... well, Fallout 5 would be set in London. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2022 at 10:07am
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

War with russia and china will make brexit meaningless!

If the UK declares war on those two unsupported... well, Fallout 5 would be set in London. 
ha even bojo not that dull , well!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2022 at 11:00am
Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Your mixing up logic and the people who vote in the uk

LOL Damit, I knew there was a flaw LOL

I can advise you TBS that is not the only flaw in your argument. Putting the current cost of living increases at the door of Brexit is really stretching credibility to the limit. You may have noticed since early 2020 that we, along with the rest of the World, have been suffering at the hands of Covid. The damage to economies all over the world has been catastrophic. The Uk economy is growing as much if not faster than all other European economies so to paint the repercussions of Brexit as you are is incorrect. 

That's wrong GPR. Your bias is showing through. Data shows the UK economy fell harder and is further behind pre pandemic levels than other economies. It has also been shown that Brexit is exacerbating inflation, bringing in additional costs on top of those all countries are experiencing. You are also mischaracterising what I said (and you say I'm stretching credibility). Brexit isn't soley responsible - it is making things worse. 

My bias is showing through - thats a good one TBS. Have a little read back through the last 20 pages or so if you want to see bias. I did not say that the EU ruined our steel industry - read my comment - in part. I am already on record recently as saying that the de-industrialisation of the Uk over the past 20/30 years has been our biggest mistake by far.

As for a European defence alliance - we already have one its called NATO. Why do we need another expensive layer???? Comments like the British people will have to suffer the consequences of their Brexit decision is the absolute worse case of bias - clearly your opinion matters more & is worth more than 54% of the voting public. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2022 at 11:40am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Your mixing up logic and the people who vote in the uk

LOL Damit, I knew there was a flaw LOL

I can advise you TBS that is not the only flaw in your argument. Putting the current cost of living increases at the door of Brexit is really stretching credibility to the limit. You may have noticed since early 2020 that we, along with the rest of the World, have been suffering at the hands of Covid. The damage to economies all over the world has been catastrophic. The Uk economy is growing as much if not faster than all other European economies so to paint the repercussions of Brexit as you are is incorrect. 

That's wrong GPR. Your bias is showing through. Data shows the UK economy fell harder and is further behind pre pandemic levels than other economies. It has also been shown that Brexit is exacerbating inflation, bringing in additional costs on top of those all countries are experiencing. You are also mischaracterising what I said (and you say I'm stretching credibility). Brexit isn't soley responsible - it is making things worse. 

My bias is showing through - thats a good one TBS. Have a little read back through the last 20 pages or so if you want to see bias. I did not say that the EU ruined our steel industry - read my comment - in part. I am already on record recently as saying that the de-industrialisation of the Uk over the past 20/30 years has been our biggest mistake by far.

As for a European defence alliance - we already have one its called NATO. Why do we need another expensive layer???? Comments like the British people will have to suffer the consequences of their Brexit decision is the absolute worse case of bias - clearly your opinion matters more & is worth more than 54% of the voting public. 

Yes, all the comments lifted from the Leave campaign. All dishonest propaganda that you appear to have fallen for. Plenty of bias there. And you did blame the EU for the demise of the Steel industry. I did read your comment. That's why I refuted it. As for NATO, did you not notice the noises coming out of America under Trump? America's reliability as a partner has been undermined by his administration. It's only a matter of time until the Republicans get in power again and just take a look at the state on them. On top of that you've got the French President calling NATO "brain dead" ... Europe would be wise to ensure it can defend itself without US support if necessary. 

As for my comment about the public sufferring the consequences of Brexit ... what? Do you think it's arrogant to point out the facts? Leave voters were all either complicit or duped. Don't shoot the messenger. And yes, people are suffering as a consequence of this vote. Well I hope people learn from their mistake. Is my opinion more important than theirs ... my opinion counts as much as my vote. And that's just it isn't it GPR ... an opinion. Like I said before, we don't have to agree do we.
"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Legendinmybathroom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2022 at 11:48am
Firstly, Hestletines comments in the guardian are just to frighten Tory MPs into giving BOJO their backing in any vote of no confidence.
Secondly, Brexit has hit people hard and businesses too.  I was in Belfast in October and was told that the number of residents claiming dual citizenship with the ROI had gone through the roof due to their concerns about the brexit deal negotiated by the Tory party and more importantly, BOJOs flagrant disregard of the deal he agreed, they felt that he couldn’t be trusted to follow through on anything he says.
Stena Line stated that traffic crossing the Irish Sea was down hugely whilst they had seen a 30% plus increase in traffic directly between Ireland and Europe, so they were redirecting some ships from mainland Britain to Ireland crossings to Europe.  The direction of Stena Line made it clear that he believed that this was solely as a result of brexit - European hauliers were choosing to bypass mainland Britain due to checks and paperwork etc.
This will (if it hasn’t already) lead to ferry companies and port authorities laying off staff - Irish Ferries have downsized the ship used between Pembroke Dock and Roslare whilst Stena did cut back on the number of crossings between Fishguard and Roslare to once daily for a period of time last year.  And this is happening in the backyard of the Welsh Office minister in Westminster (Simon Hart).
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