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dyniol53 
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 Posted: 19 October 2022 at 11:35pm |
 Oracle wrote:
If you have businesses, rejoining the European market his would be the biggest improvement for us....that in itself would increase the wealth of our country .(its the elephant in the room for labour and the torys.)
Removal of crown estate control over our natural resources would be massive for us ...with wind and water power we could generate electricity to the point where everyone in wales could have free electricity and we still could export 50%.
With our tax being spent on our own population, we could very easily increase the quality of life for everyone the country
Oil terminal supplying england , with charges for the services
Water will be the new oil in the near future , drought levels are growing , we already have Thames water, taking water from welsh resevoirs..
These are only a few points that come to me immediately, im sure a lot of more people can add the positives for independence
We have been told for years how worthless we are and how we can't survive without england , but when analysing the facts behind the statements , then you can see the lies that we have endured for decades |
This is tub thumpingly patriotic but “how would that work” could be asked about any of those points and you’d be seeing benefits in decades not years.
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Rob o'r Bont
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Posted: 10 November 2022 at 10:07am |
Ah well, I guess many of us knew this is what would happen.
"I think in respect of immigration, it's definitely not the Brexit that I wanted, or indeed, many of people who voted Brexit wanted - Lord Wolfson, a Conservative peer, told the BBC "
Sorry butty, but it's the one many of us tried to tell you you would get. Funny how it's the Brexiteers that are now moaning about Brexit.
Edited by Rob o'r Bont - 10 November 2022 at 10:09am
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GPR - Rochester
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Posted: 10 November 2022 at 10:20am |
Rob o'r Bont wrote:
Ah well, I guess many of us knew this is what would happen.
"I think in respect of immigration, it's definitely not the Brexit that I wanted, or indeed, many of people who voted Brexit wanted - Lord Wolfson, a Conservative peer, told the BBC "
Sorry butty, but it's the one many of us tried to tell you you would get. Funny how it's the Brexiteers that are now moaning about Brexit.
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I am sorry Rob but why would you blame the concept of Brexit for what is clearly incompetence by the Government. Countries throughout the World, not part of trading groups, successfully satisfy their labour shortages by employing overseas staff. Why can't we???? I have had direct experience of a system which employed many thousands of overseas workers which worked seemlessly.
The question which should be asked and is the one being asked by Lord Wolfsen in not the headline Brexit was wrong but why isn't the government using the opportunities which Brexit gave us which is totally different.
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Eastern outpost
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Posted: 10 November 2022 at 12:49pm |
GPR - Rochester wrote:
Rob o'r Bont wrote:
Ah well, I guess many of us knew this is what would happen.
"I think in respect of immigration, it's definitely not the Brexit that I wanted, or indeed, many of people who voted Brexit wanted - Lord Wolfson, a Conservative peer, told the BBC "
Sorry butty, but it's the one many of us tried to tell you you would get. Funny how it's the Brexiteers that are now moaning about Brexit.
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I am sorry Rob but why would you blame the concept of Brexit for what is clearly incompetence by the Government. Countries throughout the World, not part of trading groups, successfully satisfy their labour shortages by employing overseas staff. Why can't we???? I have had direct experience of a system which employed many thousands of overseas workers which worked seemlessly.
The question which should be asked and is the one being asked by Lord Wolfsen in not the headline Brexit was wrong but why isn't the government using the opportunities which Brexit gave us which is totally different. |
If you can narrow down when the incompetence started in the government that might help (me).
Lazy government couldn’t be bothered to negotiate thoroughly or realise that the NI customs fudge was really an impossibility and that a softer version, including freedom of movement could’ve been much better.
Edited by Eastern outpost - 10 November 2022 at 12:50pm
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GPR - Rochester
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Posted: 10 November 2022 at 2:15pm |
Eastern outpost wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
Rob o'r Bont wrote:
Ah well, I guess many of us knew this is what would happen.
"I think in respect of immigration, it's definitely not the Brexit that I wanted, or indeed, many of people who voted Brexit wanted - Lord Wolfson, a Conservative peer, told the BBC "
Sorry butty, but it's the one many of us tried to tell you you would get. Funny how it's the Brexiteers that are now moaning about Brexit.
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I am sorry Rob but why would you blame the concept of Brexit for what is clearly incompetence by the Government. Countries throughout the World, not part of trading groups, successfully satisfy their labour shortages by employing overseas staff. Why can't we???? I have had direct experience of a system which employed many thousands of overseas workers which worked seemlessly.
The question which should be asked and is the one being asked by Lord Wolfsen in not the headline Brexit was wrong but why isn't the government using the opportunities which Brexit gave us which is totally different. |
If you can narrow down when the incompetence started in the government that might help (me).
Lazy government couldn’t be bothered to negotiate thoroughly or realise that the NI customs fudge was really an impossibility and that a softer version, including freedom of movement could’ve been much better.
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To negotiate a complex deal which stands the test of time a leader with far more attention to detail than Boris would have been required. Theresa May would have had that attention to detail but, of course, she did not have the support of her back benchers with a wafer thin majority.
I have some issues with freedom of movement but I am pretty certain that a sensible deal could have been found. In the absence of freedom of movement as I have said repeatedly some form of work permit system would be pretty effective & simple.
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Rob o'r Bont
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Posted: 10 November 2022 at 10:40pm |
GPR - Rochester wrote:
Rob o'r Bont wrote:
Ah well, I guess many of us knew this is what would happen.
"I think in respect of immigration, it's definitely not the Brexit that I wanted, or indeed, many of people who voted Brexit wanted - Lord Wolfson, a Conservative peer, told the BBC "
Sorry butty, but it's the one many of us tried to tell you you would get. Funny how it's the Brexiteers that are now moaning about Brexit.
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I am sorry Rob but why would you blame the concept of Brexit for what is clearly incompetence by the Government. Countries throughout the World, not part of trading groups, successfully satisfy their labour shortages by employing overseas staff. Why can't we???? I have had direct experience of a system which employed many thousands of overseas workers which worked seemlessly.
The question which should be asked and is the one being asked by Lord Wolfsen in not the headline Brexit was wrong but why isn't the government using the opportunities which Brexit gave us which is totally different. |
Blaming incompetent politicians for Brexit's failures is a bit of a cop out. Whatever happened to the oven ready deal? It was a myth wasn't it, there was no such thing.
Farmers as far back as 2016/17 warned of food rotting in the fields after Brexit and nobody paid any attention. Now its a reality and it's not due to the incompetence of politicians, in fact it's a tribute to their skill as politicians that they were able to pull off this lie' - they knew this would happen.
And get this - the reason migrants are flocking across the Channel in such numbers is because they know that the UK has to keep them here now. Whereas when we were in the EU, there was an understanding that migrants could be returned to the last country they were in if the UK could prove that's where they cane from, so it wasn't worth the risk in negotiating the dangerous channel currents. The illegal migrant issue is a far bigger issue now than when we were in the EU.
All of this was predicted and not the fault of incompetent politicians, it was as a result of their competence as politicians. Still it's ironic seeing Brexiteers saying this isn't the Brexit they voted for - we tried to tell them, but......
Edited by Rob o'r Bont - 10 November 2022 at 10:45pm
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GPR - Rochester
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Posted: 11 November 2022 at 7:46am |
Rob o'r Bont wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
Rob o'r Bont wrote:
Ah well, I guess many of us knew this is what would happen.
"I think in respect of immigration, it's definitely not the Brexit that I wanted, or indeed, many of people who voted Brexit wanted - Lord Wolfson, a Conservative peer, told the BBC "
Sorry butty, but it's the one many of us tried to tell you you would get. Funny how it's the Brexiteers that are now moaning about Brexit.
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I am sorry Rob but why would you blame the concept of Brexit for what is clearly incompetence by the Government. Countries throughout the World, not part of trading groups, successfully satisfy their labour shortages by employing overseas staff. Why can't we???? I have had direct experience of a system which employed many thousands of overseas workers which worked seemlessly.
The question which should be asked and is the one being asked by Lord Wolfsen in not the headline Brexit was wrong but why isn't the government using the opportunities which Brexit gave us which is totally different. |
Blaming incompetent politicians for Brexit's failures is a bit of a cop out. Whatever happened to the oven ready deal? It was a myth wasn't it, there was no such thing.
Farmers as far back as 2016/17 warned of food rotting in the fields after Brexit and nobody paid any attention. Now its a reality and it's not due to the incompetence of politicians, in fact it's a tribute to their skill as politicians that they were able to pull off this lie' - they knew this would happen.
And get this - the reason migrants are flocking across the Channel in such numbers is because they know that the UK has to keep them here now. Whereas when we were in the EU, there was an understanding that migrants could be returned to the last country they were in if the UK could prove that's where they cane from, so it wasn't worth the risk in negotiating the dangerous channel currents. The illegal migrant issue is a far bigger issue now than when we were in the EU.
All of this was predicted and not the fault of incompetent politicians, it was as a result of their competence as politicians. Still it's ironic seeing Brexiteers saying this isn't the Brexit they voted for - we tried to tell them, but......
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So your answer Rob is we told you it was going to happen but you didn't listen. Well done. Of course it was well known that many farmers relied on casual overseas labour at harvest time - hardly mind blowing stuff. Surely its the job of ministers to formulate policies which deal with the requirements of the businesses in the country. A flexible labour market, as I have previously pointed out, is achieved by many stand alone countries. It does not need freedom of movement between 27 countries to succeed - just competent governance.
You clearly disagree & thats your prerogative. I take exception with remainers trying to suggest that people who voted to leave were somehow hoodwinked by lying politicians. That suggests that we were incapable of studying the facts and coming to our own conclusions. I would never, for instance, insult you by suggesting that you voted remain because George Osbourne predicted that each household would by £4k worse off per annum.
In my opinion Brexit is history & everyone needs to move on instead of gleefully jumping on some predicted misfortune years later. Covid, the fuel crisis & rampant inflation, partly caused by incompetent governance have certainly overtaken Brexit as a topic of discussion certainly in my household.
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Rob o'r Bont
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Posted: 11 November 2022 at 10:47am |
Morning GPR  , my message really is that it’s not Remainers but Leavers who are doing most of the moaning now.
Just to be clear, I think many people on both sides had valid reasons for the way they voted and I respect that. Many people such as yourself did study the facts and decided that leave was the way forward and that’s fine – but that group of people in themselves would never have been enough to win the ‘Leave’ vote.
It took a special brand of deception to convince many to vote the way they did and I don't think it's insulting to them to mention this because the lies were very convincing on both sides (although I'm hard pressed to find massive porky's on the remain side). But many people (fishing industry where the negative impact has been significant being a good example) were seduced into voting leave by false claims about how they would benefit and now regret the decision to leave. I probably would stop talking about it if Leavers didn't keep popping up saying how Brexit hasn't worked for them.
And Brexit clearly isn’t ‘history’. Brexit isn’t done. That’s possibly the biggest deception of the lot. Finding solutions to Covid, the fuel crisis & rampant inflation are hindered by the fact that ministers are still trying to sort out Brexit related problems such as the NI protocol etc. Brexit isn’t done.
Edited by Rob o'r Bont - 11 November 2022 at 10:47am
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GPR - Rochester
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Posted: 11 November 2022 at 10:53am |
Rob o'r Bont wrote:
Morning GPR , my message really is that it’s not Remainers but Leavers who are doing most of the moaning now.
Just to be clear, I think many people on both sides had valid reasons for the way they voted and I respect that. Many people such as yourself did study the facts and decided that leave was the way forward and that’s fine – but that group of people in themselves would never have been enough to win the ‘Leave’ vote.
It took a special brand of deception to convince many to vote the way they did and I don't think it's insulting to them to mention this because the lies were very convincing on both sides (although I'm hard pressed to find massive porky's on the remain side). But many people (fishing industry where the negative impact has been significant being a good example) were seduced into voting leave by false claims about how they would benefit and now regret the decision to leave. I probably would stop talking about it if Leavers didn't keep popping up saying how Brexit hasn't worked for them.
And Brexit clearly isn’t ‘history’. Brexit isn’t done. That’s possibly the biggest deception of the lot. Finding solutions to Covid, the fuel crisis & rampant inflation are hindered by the fact that ministers are still trying to sort out Brexit related problems such as the NI protocol etc. Brexit isn’t done.
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Brexit is done Rob - we ain't a member anymore & we do not pay our contribution so its done as far as I am concerned. Teething problems with things like the NI protocol were always going to be experienced when you had two sides who were sick of negotiating decide to kick the can down the road on the NI issue. Lets not forget that the EU also agree that the protocol is unworkable so they must share the blame. I totally respect your views Rob & hope that you and your family are coping well in these troubling times. Less said about the rugby the better. 
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Rob o'r Bont
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Posted: 11 November 2022 at 11:18am |
GPR - Rochester wrote:
Rob o'r Bont wrote:
Morning GPR , my message really is that it’s not Remainers but Leavers who are doing most of the moaning now.
Just to be clear, I think many people on both sides had valid reasons for the way they voted and I respect that. Many people such as yourself did study the facts and decided that leave was the way forward and that’s fine – but that group of people in themselves would never have been enough to win the ‘Leave’ vote.
It took a special brand of deception to convince many to vote the way they did and I don't think it's insulting to them to mention this because the lies were very convincing on both sides (although I'm hard pressed to find massive porky's on the remain side). But many people (fishing industry where the negative impact has been significant being a good example) were seduced into voting leave by false claims about how they would benefit and now regret the decision to leave. I probably would stop talking about it if Leavers didn't keep popping up saying how Brexit hasn't worked for them.
And Brexit clearly isn’t ‘history’. Brexit isn’t done. That’s possibly the biggest deception of the lot. Finding solutions to Covid, the fuel crisis & rampant inflation are hindered by the fact that ministers are still trying to sort out Brexit related problems such as the NI protocol etc. Brexit isn’t done.
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Brexit is done Rob - we ain't a member anymore & we do not pay our contribution so its done as far as I am concerned. Teething problems with things like the NI protocol were always going to be experienced when you had two sides who were sick of negotiating decide to kick the can down the road on the NI issue. Lets not forget that the EU also agree that the protocol is unworkable so they must share the blame. I totally respect your views Rob & hope that you and your family are coping well in these troubling times. Less said about the rugby the better. |
Cheers GPR, love debating with you as your perspective helps to inform mine. 
All good here GPR, hope all is well with you also.
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GPR - Rochester
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Posted: 11 November 2022 at 1:29pm |
Rob o'r Bont wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
Rob o'r Bont wrote:
Morning GPR , my message really is that it’s not Remainers but Leavers who are doing most of the moaning now.
Just to be clear, I think many people on both sides had valid reasons for the way they voted and I respect that. Many people such as yourself did study the facts and decided that leave was the way forward and that’s fine – but that group of people in themselves would never have been enough to win the ‘Leave’ vote.
It took a special brand of deception to convince many to vote the way they did and I don't think it's insulting to them to mention this because the lies were very convincing on both sides (although I'm hard pressed to find massive porky's on the remain side). But many people (fishing industry where the negative impact has been significant being a good example) were seduced into voting leave by false claims about how they would benefit and now regret the decision to leave. I probably would stop talking about it if Leavers didn't keep popping up saying how Brexit hasn't worked for them.
And Brexit clearly isn’t ‘history’. Brexit isn’t done. That’s possibly the biggest deception of the lot. Finding solutions to Covid, the fuel crisis & rampant inflation are hindered by the fact that ministers are still trying to sort out Brexit related problems such as the NI protocol etc. Brexit isn’t done.
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Brexit is done Rob - we ain't a member anymore & we do not pay our contribution so its done as far as I am concerned. Teething problems with things like the NI protocol were always going to be experienced when you had two sides who were sick of negotiating decide to kick the can down the road on the NI issue. Lets not forget that the EU also agree that the protocol is unworkable so they must share the blame. I totally respect your views Rob & hope that you and your family are coping well in these troubling times. Less said about the rugby the better. |
Cheers GPR, love debating with you as your perspective helps to inform mine.
All good here GPR, hope all is well with you also. |
Same here Rob. Good to hear things are good. We are fine living in splendid isolation in the Brechfa Forest. Doesn't suit everyone but we and the springers love it. 
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Eastern outpost
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Posted: 11 November 2022 at 3:34pm |
Civilised debate on issues.
Whatever next?!
BTW, Rob, I struggle really to remember much of a campaign from Remainers other than fear. If you did a post-mortem on their campaign it would have complacency writ through it like a stick of rock.
Things have changed and incompetent, sometimes unprincipled, government remains the same. The guff comes only from Westminster and no longer sprouts from Brussels.
Edited by Eastern outpost - 11 November 2022 at 3:35pm
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Oracle
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Posted: 11 November 2022 at 7:58pm |
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The only benefit of Brexit is that is super speeded independence from those idiots in Westminster.... Everything was a lie, everything else, nothing but a lie
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Rob o'r Bont
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Posted: 11 November 2022 at 8:23pm |
Eastern outpost wrote:
Civilised debate on issues.
Whatever next?!
BTW, Rob, I struggle really to remember much of a campaign from Remainers other than fear. If you did a post-mortem on their campaign it would have complacency writ through it like a stick of rock.
Things have changed and incompetent, sometimes unprincipled, government remains the same. The guff comes only from Westminster and no longer sprouts from Brussels.
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Indeed Steve, what I like about debating with GPR is that we can have a good old ding dong but at the end of the debate it's drinks in the cyber bar all round. He's one of the reasons I enjoy coming here. 
And yes, the 'remainer' politicians were definitely part of the problem.
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GPR - Rochester
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Posted: 12 November 2022 at 7:36am |
Rob o'r Bont wrote:
Eastern outpost wrote:
Civilised debate on issues.
Whatever next?!
BTW, Rob, I struggle really to remember much of a campaign from Remainers other than fear. If you did a post-mortem on their campaign it would have complacency writ through it like a stick of rock.
Things have changed and incompetent, sometimes unprincipled, government remains the same. The guff comes only from Westminster and no longer sprouts from Brussels.
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Indeed Steve, what I like about debating with GPR is that we can have a good old ding dong but at the end of the debate it's drinks in the cyber bar all round. He's one of the reasons I enjoy coming here.
And yes, the 'remainer' politicians were definitely part of the problem. |
Thank you Rob & Steve the sprout phrase is a cracker.
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Eastern outpost
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Posted: 12 November 2022 at 9:38am |
GPR - Rochester wrote:
Rob o'r Bont wrote:
Eastern outpost wrote:
Civilised debate on issues.
Whatever next?!
BTW, Rob, I struggle really to remember much of a campaign from Remainers other than fear. If you did a post-mortem on their campaign it would have complacency writ through it like a stick of rock.
Things have changed and incompetent, sometimes unprincipled, government remains the same. The guff comes only from Westminster and no longer sprouts from Brussels.
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Indeed Steve, what I like about debating with GPR is that we can have a good old ding dong but at the end of the debate it's drinks in the cyber bar all round. He's one of the reasons I enjoy coming here.
And yes, the 'remainer' politicians were definitely part of the problem. |
Thank you Rob & Steve the sprout phrase is a cracker. |
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