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RR1972 View Drop Down
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Points: 17763 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 March 2023 at 8:44pm
Originally posted by hoppy hoppy wrote:

Not much in the budget for working people 
bit of a non
Event wasn’t it?
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They have crunched the numbers and yes Joe ordinary will be paying for it all again...jeez general election cannot come quickly enough.
In 1972, Roy Bergiers scored that try and said "that was for you lofty"

"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"
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Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by hoppy hoppy wrote:

Not much in the budget for working people 
bit of a non
Event wasn’t it?

Boring...boring ole jazzy is so dead he was never born...and his name is was it says on the tin....and Sunak slapped him on his shoulder...must have hurt the green card wimp bigstyle as never ever ever ever ever used to using his feeble thin arms on manual labour.






Edited by lofty evans - 15 March 2023 at 11:02pm
In 1972, Roy Bergiers scored that try and said "that was for you lofty"

"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"
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Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Again you raise many good poinrs, again  there are counter points some would say those already in calais  are not getting bombed or indeed in a war zone though? Shouldn’t we be fastvtracking those in actual war zones right now?  And Not Those who are already in a safe nation and have likely travelled through several safe nations to be there? Granted the torys don’t seem to want to do that either!  So maybe that’s not a great counter point, The water board / guataemo bay argument is  a different matter if by using these methods we prevented  terror attacks and saved innocent lives i have no issue with it. If you join to fight for the taliban al queda or isis frankky you reap what you sow. The geneva convention doesn’t cover non uniformed combatants

There are two separate arguments here to counter  RR
Firstly the humanitarian one and the second preventing terror.

RR is  correct to  point out that we do not want to fast track criminals here, but we do need to process asylum seekers and leave them is a piss poor camp for ever and a day , in conditions which you and I would not put put up with for ourselves. The information I have at my disposal comes from the British red cross and international organisation of world renown, who I support with small financial donations, monthly . The The Red Cross are clearly unhappy with the situation after working closely with those running the camps in Calais, and its not surprising.
The Tories have dragged their feet for ages on the camps and have not made sure any EFFICIENT  processing of applications has  taken place. 
Covid proved , it can happen, and can happen & quickly, if the will is there.
Only now ,are we having proper dialogue with French , Macron and Sunak, actually speaking !
It just isn't good enough for an alleged civilised country .

Moving on to preventing terror, I have already laid out reasons in previous posts, of you can create a terrorist and an enemy.
Those who would harm us, from various places, would have no hesitation ,in exploiting the disaffected, the downtrodden, the disenfranchised, and those who have absolutely nothing.
The vast majority would never consider radicalisation, but a small number of vulnerable people would, and could therefore be sadly sadly exploited to partake in violent activities .
We must not give free ammunition to those who would wreak havoc and destruction and evil 
To turn your back but decreasing foreign aid, as the UK government are doing (Rees-Mogg wanted to stop it completely )and now to in the words of the archbishop of Canterbury " abdication of our just and moral responsibility" to those fleeing persecution is not only repugnant, but dangerous .

In the same context we can view torture, 
RR, in my view, is  not only a very valued poster here on SF, but a thoroughly good man, who speaks with honesty and commitment. Long may it continue.
I cannot believe however that he condones torture, even as a  means to an end.
We can look at it , in two ways.
Firstly, is this a reliable source of information. Surely those who are suffering torture will impart with anything that interrogator's want to hear. the Spanish Inquisition, is a fine example, during a period of religious persecution.
Secondly , if we condone be-heading, by Isis, or knee -capping by the IRA, are we therefore any better than those who's action we describe as those of demonic terrorists, if we exercise torture to glean "useful information".

One of the things I have learnt (in a different context) , during many years of political campaigns, is NEVER make a greater enemy of your enemy. Treat people with respect , even if you oppose them with every fibre of your being.
No one could be more hostile the the utter evil represented by filth like Isis, than me.
To torture those held though is not only morally wrong, but counter productive, both in the short and long term in the context of strategy.
We hold the moral ground in the context that when opposing terrorism, "we are better than them", not only by doing what is right, but in doing so, will save lives 
I stood yer on tanner bank
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Torture is a complex moral issue and not open and shut for example you can’t compare the ira who like them or loathe then were fighting for a united ireland to say isis who wanted a a world wide  caliphate thought it was ok to behead aid workers , throw lgbt people off roofs and enslsave yazidi women And girls. Now  wpuld i have any issue to water boarding an isis fighter in order to obtain information to save innocent lives ? Yes i would, i’ m not talking about returning to internment or the blanket men daysib ulster Just giving examples when it can be used. Also those reprobates that refused to tell the authorities where that poor dead baby was the other day? What if their silence cost that child her life? As i said it’s not an open and shut case and taking the moral high ground is somtimes not a luxury we can afford
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Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

[QUOTE=hoppy]Not much in the budget for working people 
bit of a non
Event wasn’t it?
[/QUOTE
I disagree , he gave amassive tax break to his super rich friends via the pension tax exemption...if you ca afford a pension pot upto 1.8 million , you now are able to avoid a further tax saving of 73k....
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Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Torture is a complex moral issue and not open and shut for example you can’t compare the ira who like them or loathe then were fighting for a united ireland to say isis who wanted a a world wide  caliphate thought it was ok to behead aid workers , throw lgbt people off roofs and enslsave yazidi women And girls. Now  wpuld i have any issue to water boarding an isis fighter in order to obtain information to save innocent lives ? Yes i would, i’ m not talking about returning to internment or the blanket men daysib ulster Just giving examples when it can be used. Also those reprobates that refused to tell the authorities where that poor dead baby was the other day? What if their silence cost that child her life? As i said it’s not an open and shut case and taking the moral high ground is somtimes not a luxury we can afford

Its been proven that information gathered from torture is next to useless , as its often based apon the person being in pain , confused and often oxygen starved
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Good exchange Pimp & RR. Firstly RR has hit the nail on the head - balance. It is far too easy to omit facts in support of an argument - that is something we must ALL seek to correct. 

The 2nd point I will raise is for you Pimp. The subject of overseas aid. Is it morally correct to keep pumping 100's of millions of British taxpayers money into overseas coffers when we have record numbers of people living on the streets & so may of our citizens struggling to survive and the use of food banks is at record levels?. Add in the complete mess our government of helping vulnerable overseas people who are on our doorstep & I can certainly see the case for using those millions nearer home. 

Of course when catastrophes like the recent earthquakes happen we should and usually are at the forefront of responders. 
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Points: 17934 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 March 2023 at 7:55am
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by Oracle Oracle wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Sone salient pointd tbs, however for the sake of balance you shoukd point out that he incident in liverpool was due to an asylum seeker making sexual advances to
A 15 year old girl
Probably a young Tory too 
not sure what the young girls politics had to do with it  it’s grooming  it’s illegal and it shouldn’t be happening full stop so not sure what point your attempting to make tbh . Although i doubt she was a tory knowsley voted 80 per cent labour last election, got to ensure we post facts on here to ensure it is a balanced thread

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Originally posted by Oracle Oracle wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Torture is a complex moral issue and not open and shut for example you can’t compare the ira who like them or loathe then were fighting for a united ireland to say isis who wanted a a world wide  caliphate thought it was ok to behead aid workers , throw lgbt people off roofs and enslsave yazidi women And girls. Now  wpuld i have any issue to water boarding an isis fighter in order to obtain information to save innocent lives ? Yes i would, i’ m not talking about returning to internment or the blanket men daysib ulster Just giving examples when it can be used. Also those reprobates that refused to tell the authorities where that poor dead baby was the other day? What if their silence cost that child her life? As i said it’s not an open and shut case and taking the moral high ground is somtimes not a luxury we can afford

Its been proven that information gathered from torture is next to useless , as its often based apon the person being in pain , confused and often oxygen starved
no it hasn’t there is a reason torture has been used for 1000s of years. It’s cos it works 
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No it doesnt 
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Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by Oracle Oracle wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Sone salient pointd tbs, however for the sake of balance you shoukd point out that he incident in liverpool was due to an asylum seeker making sexual advances to
A 15 year old girl
Probably a young Tory too 
not sure what the young girls politics had to do with it  it’s grooming  it’s illegal and it shouldn’t be happening full stop so not sure what point your attempting to make tbh . Although i doubt she was a tory knowsley voted 80 per cent labour last election, got to ensure we post facts on here to ensure it is a balanced thread

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I didnt mean the girl , i was refering to the guy
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Originally posted by Oracle Oracle wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by Oracle Oracle wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Sone salient pointd tbs, however for the sake of balance you shoukd point out that he incident in liverpool was due to an asylum seeker making sexual advances to
A 15 year old girl
Probably a young Tory too 
not sure what the young girls politics had to do with it  it’s grooming  it’s illegal and it shouldn’t be happening full stop so not sure what point your attempting to make tbh . Although i doubt she was a tory knowsley voted 80 per cent labour last election, got to ensure we post facts on here to ensure it is a balanced thread

Clap
I didnt mean the girl , i was refering to the guy
he was a 25 year old afghan not really sure that counts as young tbh, and again i doubt he was a tory
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Points: 3959 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oracle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 March 2023 at 8:47am
Most Asians do follow the Tory party , strange really ...look at the cabinet most are off spring of immigrants , who now hate immigrants...really strange
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Originally posted by Oracle Oracle wrote:

Most Asians do follow the Tory party , strange really ...look at the cabinet most are off spring of immigrants , who now hate immigrants...really strange
a fairly broad generaliation of the voting habits of an entire continent there sir!Wink
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A very relevent sample though 
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