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Through the gate?

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KID A View Drop Down
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    Posted: 05 November 2011 at 2:50pm
What is the rule if the scrum half has just taken the ball out of a ruck...............and a player comes through (or over) the ruck and tackles him.

I see so many penalties given for it, and the ball is clearly out, and the player was not offside before the 9 takes it out of the ruck.

See Toulouse's final penalty this afternoon.

Why is the penalty given?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wizard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 November 2011 at 8:29am
did the player stay on his feet to make the tackle or just dive over the top ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2011 at 1:52pm
Originally posted by wizard wizard wrote:

did the player stay on his feet to make the tackle or just dive over the top ?


He was off his feet. As he jumped over the top of the ruck. It was in no way dangerous or against the laws tackle wise.

It was given for offside
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2011 at 2:11pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by wizard wizard wrote:

did the player stay on his feet to make the tackle or just dive over the top ?


He was off his feet. As he jumped over the top of the ruck. It was in no way dangerous or against the laws tackle wise.

It was given for offside


If he is off his feet, he is out of the game, to get onside he has to leave the ruck, & rejoin on his feet from behind the hindmost foot & "through the gate"

Offside was the correct decision !

My interpretation of the Ruck law is "if the Scrum Half has both hands on the ball, it is playable, therefore Ruck is over" however the Ruck being over does NOT play the players onside !

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2011 at 3:06pm
Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:



If he is off his feet, he is out of the game, to get onside he has to leave the ruck, & rejoin on his feet from behind the hindmost foot & "through the gate"

Offside was the correct decision !

My interpretation of the Ruck law is "if the Scrum Half has both hands on the ball, it is playable, therefore Ruck is over" however the Ruck being over does NOT play the players onside !



Yes the 9 had both hands on the ball. The offending player was behind the hindmost foot.

So if the ruck is over, how is the player supposed to leave the ruck?

It's over. Therefore he is definitely onside as he was way behind the hindmost foot, and free to dive on the ball as it was open play no?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2011 at 3:25pm
I'm confused now, your previous post said he was off his feet !

I can only assume the player dived over the Ruck ? if this is so, it is a Penalty for "Dangerous Play" not offside !

16:2 (d) All players forming, joining or taking part in a ruck must be on their feet.
Sanction: Penalty kick

16:3 (d) A player must not jump on top of a ruck.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Any chance of the video clip !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2011 at 3:39pm
Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

I'm confused now, your previous post said he was off his feet !


Yes, he was off his feet : as in he dived and tackled the player in mid air (he wasn't lying on the floor)

Quote

I can only assume the player dived over the Ruck ? if this is so, it is a Penalty for "Dangerous Play" not offside !

16:2 (d) All players forming, joining or taking part in a ruck must be on their feet.
Sanction: Penalty kick               
                                                                      

16:3 (d) A player must not jump on top of a ruck.
Sanction: Penalty kick               
                              

Any chance of the video clip !




That is never given as dangerous play though. It's always given as offside. The type of incodent I'm talking about is similar to the Ulster chap below (who wasn't penalised as we know)
But the difference was he was behind the foot, dived over the ruck and made a perfectly good tackle after the scrum half had 2 hands on it. It happens very very often, and to me seemingly is a complete 50/50 as to thether the referee gives a penalty or not.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2011 at 4:11pm
Without seeing the actual clip, I can't give my opinion, only quote the relevant law I think applies to the situation.
Once again, it's very easy to give the correct decision from TV camera angle, but being in the thick of it & trying to watch the whole picture, it is impossible to see everything & react accordingly in the split second a Referee gets.

I don't  think there will ever be a game where the Ref gets EVERY decision spot on ! Just as there will NEVER be a game where there are no mistakes are made by players ! There is unfortunately a Human element to this... Fans call for "Professional" Referees not to make errors ! Referees don't like making Errors !
We hear every day of Professionals like Doctors, Nurses & Engineers making mistakes in the course of their duties & they have more training than Referees. It will always happen & the person who comes up with the solution has the potential to become very wealthy indeed.

As for diving over the Ruck never being given as Dangerous play, that (I would imagine) would be the Referee not seeing the whole of the incident, as when the ruck has settled, & the defending team have "stopped competing"... The Referees concentration is more towards the offside lines in the backs, & the first thing he sees is "Superman" flying at the halfback, & perhaps wrongly presuming the player has come from an offside position !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2011 at 5:37pm
Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

The Referees concentration is more towards the offside lines in the backs, & the first thing he sees is "Superman" flying at the halfback, & perhaps wrongly presuming the player has come from an offside position !



I know the refs have a hard job. It's just that this type of offside happens a massive amount because the players have been told - once the 9 has both hands on it the ball is playable - so they play it and then get pinged!

very frustrating
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2011 at 12:43pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

The Referees concentration is more towards the offside lines in the backs, & the first thing he sees is "Superman" flying at the halfback, & perhaps wrongly presuming the player has come from an offside position !



I know the refs have a hard job. It's just that this type of offside happens a massive amount because the players have been told - once the 9 has both hands on it the ball is playable - so they play it and then get pinged!

very frustrating


What you generally find is that the player is in front or IN LINE with the back foot before the 9 gets his mits on it ! Putting his hands on does NOT put an offside player onside !
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