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dr_martinov 
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 Topic: Brexit explained
Posted: 07 April 2023 at 8:58am |
Something to do in those queues at Dover I suppose.
Ah, there we go: the British audiobook market is booming because of Brexit!
Edited by dr_martinov - 07 April 2023 at 8:59am
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Oracle
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Posted: 06 April 2023 at 11:09pm |
Nice 
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RR1972
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Posted: 06 April 2023 at 10:45pm |
Audio book saves me the effort of reading 
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Oracle
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Posted: 06 April 2023 at 10:43pm |
I wasn't sure if you had the ebook or the colouring book version
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RR1972
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Posted: 06 April 2023 at 10:16pm |
 Oracle wrote:
Is it the last kingdom series |
no it’s abour thomas of hookton an archer and it’s tied in with the holy grail, worth looking up
Edited by RR1972 - 06 April 2023 at 10:46pm
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Oracle
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Posted: 06 April 2023 at 10:05pm |
Interesting post regarding the same bullpoo spouted by Westminster
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Oracle
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Posted: 06 April 2023 at 9:28pm |
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Is it the last kingdom series
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RR1972
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Posted: 06 April 2023 at 8:29pm |
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On a side note reading bernard cornwls harlequin trology and they just stormed caen! Great books
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Eastern outpost
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Posted: 06 April 2023 at 3:00pm |
aber-fan wrote:
Eastern outpost wrote:
On the passport control hoohah at Dover last weekend, just wait to when the ETIAS system is introduced.
It requires every passenger to get out of their vehicle and give fingerprints and be photographed. There’s a fee, of course. Can’t remember the exact details as its introduction has been postponed twice, maybe more.
iirc, the ETIAS last for 3 years. However, the havoc it will create when folk are getting them for the first time at the point of departure will be far worse than we’ve seen recently.
It’s great putting advance passenger info on the sites that allow/require this. If only something like that can be done for this then it would be great. However, how can you be sure to get the right fingerprints etc other than by a personal appearance somewhere?
The current visa system requires all applicants to turn up at Wandsworth, Manchester or Edinburgh with lots of info and proofs of various things - place to stay, health cover (a GHIC card) and adequate finances. Those are for visas of 6 months or 12 and other visas for studying or working off different lengths.
No politicians would remind those in the queues that its what they voted for. |
With respect to delays at passport control - two stories from personal experience:
1. Coaches - my wife used to take groups of up to 50 kids to France on exchange visits. She had to gather all this information about the pupils - their names and addresses, parents, passport numbers etc - and all of this info was put on two sheets of paper and presented at passport control along with the passports - which were not even looked at, usually. The process took around 10 minutes for the two documents to be stamped. Now, every single passport must be looked at and stamped individually - I have seen a time of around 2h quoted per coach, which seems realistic.
2. Coming off the ferry on Sunday morning, we had to spend 2h to clear immigration instead of the maximum of 45min in the past - each passport had to be scanned and stamped.
Great, innit? |
We’ve been on coach trips during EU membership and have had to get off the coach and go through passport control individually so they could see the document matched the person holding it. No stamp and that took not very long at all.
In years of PS (Passport Stamping) Eurotunnel are very efficient and 2 passports take less than a minute at the French booth and less at the prior UK booth.
With the checks for Covid vaccinations etc you could double that probably.
Ferry wise - it’s easier for pet control as your dogs stay in the car and you wave the microchip reader over each dog (one at a time). They check it matches the documents and your dog’s jabs are in accordance with requirements - a couple of mins per dog/cat/ferret/ whatever.
The longest queue we’ve ever had coming off a ferry was just after the Bataclan shooting, iirc, and every car was searched. it took us nearly 2 hours from docking to leaving the port, although we were almost last off.
This week’s trip via the tunnel and an overnight stop near Rouen saw us have a coffee break next morning south of Le Mans. There, we were surprised to see lots of British numberplates and more arrived while we were there. They’d come off the morning arrival from Portsmouth at Caen. Yes it took longer, folk said. One guy was in the early batch of cars off and it took him 40 mins. He hated to think how long for the later cars.
It is what it is now. It was easy now it’s worse.
It’s anticipating it and coping with it. It will get worse with the ETIAS system unless some bright thinking finds an improved solution. However, that would require optimism of a huge scale.
Those with the ability to travel mid-week and off-peak will fare far better than those fixed to Friday/Saturday travel.
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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.
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GPR - Rochester
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Posted: 06 April 2023 at 2:13pm |
aber-fan wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
aber-fan wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
Rob o'r Bont wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
Rob o'r Bont wrote:
Don't think there are any respected analysts of Brexit now trying to say that Brexit is a success. All are saying we are worse off.
A third of leave voters now dubbed 'Bregreters' think it was a mistake to leave the EU. If people had only been correctly informed, think what this would have done to the vote in 2016. It would have resulted in a whopping 65% Remain to 35% leave.
We have to move on as others are saying but for me, moving on means raising the level of political debate in this country out of the gutter so that we have a democracy that actually works for all, not just the few who have no doubt benefited at the expense of the many who are losing out.
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Two things spring to mind Rob - the 65% - 35% whopper you state is in fact a poll is it not? 4 weeks before the Brexit vote the polls showed 60-40 in favour of remain.
Welcome to this debate by the way. Much has been made over countless pages since Brexit of leavers not having been correctly informed. I am fascinated by what these facts are - I based my decision on a set of facts that are as relevant today as they were then so I would be very interested in what you mean. By the way please don't mention the bloody bus again. |
I told myslelf I would just post one post in this thread GPR but here I am breaking my own promise to myself.  These Brexit threads are like the Hotel Calafornia - you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.
To answer your question, I think the main fact that people are disgruntled about is that they were all told that things would be better after Brexit but in fact they are worse. |
I love that Hotel California comment Rob. I can totally see that we are worse off now generally than we were before Brexit - I get it. My explanation though would place the reasons at the door of the pandemic, fuel crisis and shambolic governance rather than leaving the EU.
At the time of leaving even with a steady tide it was going to take a number of years before the financial benefits would show through to GDP; the actual choppy waters have, of course, lengthened that timescale considerably. If I had had a crystal ball which would have predicted the above circumstances I think I would have probably chosen to vote for steady as she goes rather than leave in all honesty. |
Well, Hallelujah!
I never thought I'd live long enough to read those words.
Although you blame the downturn in the UK's economy on other factors, IMHO Brexit was a major contributor to how badly things have gone (I know those other factors played a not insignificant part too). The best way to judge that is to compare the UK economy with those of the larger EU countries - the UK has done significantly worse, even though Germany (for example) is far more dependent on Russian gas and oil than the UK. |
I wouldn't celebrate too much Aber - I did say if I had a crystal ball. Every major economy in the world bar none suffered severely as a result of covid. The basic reasons why I voted leave are as pertinent today as back then & I would vote exactly the same way if there is another vote with one proviso - that we have a functioning, honest government who are all aligned behind the policy. |
... but every major economy in the world has recovered faster and better than the UK.
Your explanation?
A weaker than expected recovery from the coronavirus pandemic has left the UK as the only G7 country with a smaller economy than in early 2020, according to official figures https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/sep/30/uk-is-only-g7-country-with-smaller-economy-than-before-covid-19
The UK's recovery from the damage caused by the Covid pandemic lagged behind other big economies in the first three months of 2021. Economic output was 8.7% below pre-pandemic levels at the end of 2019, said the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). |
My explanation - two simple words - poor governance.
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aber-fan
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Posted: 06 April 2023 at 2:11pm |
GPR - Rochester wrote:
aber-fan wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
Rob o'r Bont wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
Rob o'r Bont wrote:
Don't think there are any respected analysts of Brexit now trying to say that Brexit is a success. All are saying we are worse off.
A third of leave voters now dubbed 'Bregreters' think it was a mistake to leave the EU. If people had only been correctly informed, think what this would have done to the vote in 2016. It would have resulted in a whopping 65% Remain to 35% leave.
We have to move on as others are saying but for me, moving on means raising the level of political debate in this country out of the gutter so that we have a democracy that actually works for all, not just the few who have no doubt benefited at the expense of the many who are losing out.
|
Two things spring to mind Rob - the 65% - 35% whopper you state is in fact a poll is it not? 4 weeks before the Brexit vote the polls showed 60-40 in favour of remain.
Welcome to this debate by the way. Much has been made over countless pages since Brexit of leavers not having been correctly informed. I am fascinated by what these facts are - I based my decision on a set of facts that are as relevant today as they were then so I would be very interested in what you mean. By the way please don't mention the bloody bus again. |
I told myslelf I would just post one post in this thread GPR but here I am breaking my own promise to myself. These Brexit threads are like the Hotel Calafornia - you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.
To answer your question, I think the main fact that people are disgruntled about is that they were all told that things would be better after Brexit but in fact they are worse. |
I love that Hotel California comment Rob. I can totally see that we are worse off now generally than we were before Brexit - I get it. My explanation though would place the reasons at the door of the pandemic, fuel crisis and shambolic governance rather than leaving the EU.
At the time of leaving even with a steady tide it was going to take a number of years before the financial benefits would show through to GDP; the actual choppy waters have, of course, lengthened that timescale considerably. If I had had a crystal ball which would have predicted the above circumstances I think I would have probably chosen to vote for steady as she goes rather than leave in all honesty. |
Well, Hallelujah!
I never thought I'd live long enough to read those words.
Although you blame the downturn in the UK's economy on other factors, IMHO Brexit was a major contributor to how badly things have gone (I know those other factors played a not insignificant part too). The best way to judge that is to compare the UK economy with those of the larger EU countries - the UK has done significantly worse, even though Germany (for example) is far more dependent on Russian gas and oil than the UK. |
I wouldn't celebrate too much Aber - I did say if I had a crystal ball. Every major economy in the world bar none suffered severely as a result of covid. The basic reasons why I voted leave are as pertinent today as back then & I would vote exactly the same way if there is another vote with one proviso - that we have a functioning, honest government who are all aligned behind the policy. |
... but every major economy in the world has recovered faster and better than the UK.
Your explanation?
A weaker than expected recovery from the coronavirus pandemic has left the UK as the only G7 country with a smaller economy than in early 2020, according to official figures https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/sep/30/uk-is-only-g7-country-with-smaller-economy-than-before-covid-19
The UK's recovery from the damage caused by the Covid pandemic lagged behind other big economies in the first three months of 2021. Economic output was 8.7% below pre-pandemic levels at the end of 2019, said the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD).
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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
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aber-fan
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Posted: 06 April 2023 at 2:03pm |
Eastern outpost wrote:
On the passport control hoohah at Dover last weekend, just wait to when the ETIAS system is introduced.
It requires every passenger to get out of their vehicle and give fingerprints and be photographed. There’s a fee, of course. Can’t remember the exact details as its introduction has been postponed twice, maybe more.
iirc, the ETIAS last for 3 years. However, the havoc it will create when folk are getting them for the first time at the point of departure will be far worse than we’ve seen recently.
It’s great putting advance passenger info on the sites that allow/require this. If only something like that can be done for this then it would be great. However, how can you be sure to get the right fingerprints etc other than by a personal appearance somewhere?
The current visa system requires all applicants to turn up at Wandsworth, Manchester or Edinburgh with lots of info and proofs of various things - place to stay, health cover (a GHIC card) and adequate finances. Those are for visas of 6 months or 12 and other visas for studying or working off different lengths.
No politicians would remind those in the queues that its what they voted for. |
With respect to delays at passport control - two stories from personal experience:
1. Coaches - my wife used to take groups of up to 50 kids to France on exchange visits. She had to gather all this information about the pupils - their names and addresses, parents, passport numbers etc - and all of this info was put on two sheets of paper and presented at passport control along with the passports - which were not even looked at, usually. The process took around 10 minutes for the two documents to be stamped. Now, every single passport must be looked at and stamped individually - I have seen a time of around 2h quoted per coach, which seems realistic.
2. Coming off the ferry on Sunday morning, we had to spend 2h to clear immigration instead of the maximum of 45min in the past - each passport had to be scanned and stamped.
Great, innit?
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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
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GPR - Rochester
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Posted: 06 April 2023 at 1:51pm |
aber-fan wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
Rob o'r Bont wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
Rob o'r Bont wrote:
Don't think there are any respected analysts of Brexit now trying to say that Brexit is a success. All are saying we are worse off.
A third of leave voters now dubbed 'Bregreters' think it was a mistake to leave the EU. If people had only been correctly informed, think what this would have done to the vote in 2016. It would have resulted in a whopping 65% Remain to 35% leave.
We have to move on as others are saying but for me, moving on means raising the level of political debate in this country out of the gutter so that we have a democracy that actually works for all, not just the few who have no doubt benefited at the expense of the many who are losing out.
|
Two things spring to mind Rob - the 65% - 35% whopper you state is in fact a poll is it not? 4 weeks before the Brexit vote the polls showed 60-40 in favour of remain.
Welcome to this debate by the way. Much has been made over countless pages since Brexit of leavers not having been correctly informed. I am fascinated by what these facts are - I based my decision on a set of facts that are as relevant today as they were then so I would be very interested in what you mean. By the way please don't mention the bloody bus again. |
I told myslelf I would just post one post in this thread GPR but here I am breaking my own promise to myself. These Brexit threads are like the Hotel Calafornia - you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.
To answer your question, I think the main fact that people are disgruntled about is that they were all told that things would be better after Brexit but in fact they are worse. |
I love that Hotel California comment Rob. I can totally see that we are worse off now generally than we were before Brexit - I get it. My explanation though would place the reasons at the door of the pandemic, fuel crisis and shambolic governance rather than leaving the EU.
At the time of leaving even with a steady tide it was going to take a number of years before the financial benefits would show through to GDP; the actual choppy waters have, of course, lengthened that timescale considerably. If I had had a crystal ball which would have predicted the above circumstances I think I would have probably chosen to vote for steady as she goes rather than leave in all honesty. |
Well, Hallelujah!
I never thought I'd live long enough to read those words.
Although you blame the downturn in the UK's economy on other factors, IMHO Brexit was a major contributor to how badly things have gone (I know those other factors played a not insignificant part too). The best way to judge that is to compare the UK economy with those of the larger EU countries - the UK has done significantly worse, even though Germany (for example) is far more dependent on Russian gas and oil than the UK. |
I wouldn't celebrate too much Aber - I did say if I had a crystal ball. Every major economy in the world bar none suffered severely as a result of covid. The basic reasons why I voted leave are as pertinent today as back then & I would vote exactly the same way if there is another vote with one proviso - that we have a functioning, honest government who are all aligned behind the policy.
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aber-fan
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Posted: 06 April 2023 at 1:28pm |
roy munster wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
roy munster wrote:
Oracle wrote:
There is no trade agreement with Europe currently but the UK has just signed one with oceana which brings in an additional 0.08% to our GDP ...which has gone down by 4% per year since Brexit ...so effectively it will take 5 years to offset leaving the European market , but if course by then we would have lost 20% , so the only emotion it stirs in a normal person is tears of sorrow |
The UK Trade Agreement with the eu was signed on 30 December 2020, was applied provisionally as of 1 January 2021 and entered into force on 1 May 2021 |
Thanks Roy - these facts really do get in the way of a good story.  |
Just trying to bring some balance back to the 1 eyed universe😂
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Well, you are not telling the whole story though Roy.
I assume this 'deal' is the one negotiated by Boris Johnson - who then, two years later, threatened to tear it up himself!
"Boris Johnson on Monday defied a chorus of criticism and published legislation to rip up his 2020 Brexit deal with the EU, insisting there was “no other way” of protecting the peace process in Northern Ireland." (Financial Times, June 13 2022)
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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
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aber-fan
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Posted: 06 April 2023 at 1:18pm |
GPR - Rochester wrote:
Rob o'r Bont wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
Rob o'r Bont wrote:
Don't think there are any respected analysts of Brexit now trying to say that Brexit is a success. All are saying we are worse off.
A third of leave voters now dubbed 'Bregreters' think it was a mistake to leave the EU. If people had only been correctly informed, think what this would have done to the vote in 2016. It would have resulted in a whopping 65% Remain to 35% leave.
We have to move on as others are saying but for me, moving on means raising the level of political debate in this country out of the gutter so that we have a democracy that actually works for all, not just the few who have no doubt benefited at the expense of the many who are losing out.
|
Two things spring to mind Rob - the 65% - 35% whopper you state is in fact a poll is it not? 4 weeks before the Brexit vote the polls showed 60-40 in favour of remain.
Welcome to this debate by the way. Much has been made over countless pages since Brexit of leavers not having been correctly informed. I am fascinated by what these facts are - I based my decision on a set of facts that are as relevant today as they were then so I would be very interested in what you mean. By the way please don't mention the bloody bus again. |
I told myslelf I would just post one post in this thread GPR but here I am breaking my own promise to myself. These Brexit threads are like the Hotel Calafornia - you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.
To answer your question, I think the main fact that people are disgruntled about is that they were all told that things would be better after Brexit but in fact they are worse. |
I love that Hotel California comment Rob. I can totally see that we are worse off now generally than we were before Brexit - I get it. My explanation though would place the reasons at the door of the pandemic, fuel crisis and shambolic governance rather than leaving the EU.
At the time of leaving even with a steady tide it was going to take a number of years before the financial benefits would show through to GDP; the actual choppy waters have, of course, lengthened that timescale considerably. If I had had a crystal ball which would have predicted the above circumstances I think I would have probably chosen to vote for steady as she goes rather than leave in all honesty. |
Well, Hallelujah!
I never thought I'd live long enough to read those words.
Although you blame the downturn in the UK's economy on other factors, IMHO Brexit was a major contributor to how badly things have gone (I know those other factors played a not insignificant part too). The best way to judge that is to compare the UK economy with those of the larger EU countries - the UK has done significantly worse, even though Germany (for example) is far more dependent on Russian gas and oil than the UK.
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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
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dr_martinov
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Posted: 06 April 2023 at 9:45am |
GPR - Rochester wrote:
One of the most important attributes for any sports person or indeed politician is balance. Not many great rugby backs, footballers, cricketers, tennis players or golfers would have achieved that status without it let alone jockeys. The ability to see others views and formulate a consensus is fundamental to good politics. Unfortunately we in Britain have been starved of politicians with this attribute for far too long. |
It's due to cynical electioneering from Johnson (a proven liar who many people were willing to vote in as PM) et al. in constant "campaign mode". Elected off the back of Brexit, and backed by most of our media, they polarised the issue to discredit any actual discussion; any criticism or proposal that differed to theirs was labelled a "betrayal" by people "who wanted to reverse Brexit" and so on.
There were multiple directions post-Brexit could have taken but this ended up being an internal power struggle in the ruling Government who were also maintaining their own power by describing themselves as the only party in favour of, and able to deliver, Brexit.
Despite my view it was an error at the time, where I viewed the benefits of EU membership outweighing the cons, nothing has appeared to convince me otherwise as essentially no new benefits have appeared. My view is in part due to that deliberate polarisation above combined with the selection of Johnson as their leader, the Conservatives have ensured public trust in politicians is at an all time low so I wouldn't trust anything describing new deals as "world leading" and so on; this is just meaningless campaign talk yet again. You reap what you sow. But we can at least agree it has been mismanaged to an extreme level by a group of incompetent and corrupt politicians.
Edited by dr_martinov - 06 April 2023 at 10:31am
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