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roy munster View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Voter ID
    Posted: 14 May 2021 at 3:14pm
Whats the advantages/disadvantages for and against this proposal?
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
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aber-fan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2021 at 3:59pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Whats the advantages/disadvantages for and against this proposal?

The advantages (if you are a conservative): far more of your voters will have a photo ID to hand already than if you are a labour voter (driving license or passport)

If you are labour (or a party with fewer well-off voters) - disadvantages (as above).

If you are in local government - it sounds as if the cost of providing photo ID for those who don't already have it will be passed on by Westminster to local authorities - who are not exactly rolling in cash ATM!

(This is from the Trump/Republican playbook, where all sorts of ruses are used to discourage and disenfranchise the 'wrong sort of voter' - i.e. black, poor, Spanish/Mexican... despite the fact that voter fraud is absolutely tiny in the US and in the UK. It's not a 'solution to a problem, but a form of universal gerrymandering.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2021 at 4:05pm
Most of us have some form of photo id from student union card to bus pass. I don’t have an issue with it tbh. I’m all for id cards in general tbh but they should be free . 

Edited by RR1972 - 14 May 2021 at 4:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jones2004 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2021 at 4:15pm
The chance of someone committing voter fraud is about the same as the chance of them being hit by lightning - i.e. absolutely tiny. We do have problems with election integrity in this country but they are things like Russian interference and the breaking of electoral law by campaign groups (e.g. Vote Leave), not this red herring. Boris won’t do anything about those two examples as they tend to help the conservatives while the requiring of photo ID will hugely disadvantage progressive voters. 
Lastly in terms of the cost of this, if the government/ councils have to pick up the cost of providing over 3m free photo ID it will be a monumental waste of money, but the alternative is even worse. The alternative is that people have to buy their own photo ID which would mean that you’d have to pay to vote, meaning only those with enough money would be able to vote. That would set us back a century, end free and universal suffrage, and I would argue make us no longer a true democracy. I really don’t believe that is an exaggeration. I truly do hope that won’t happen and that this idiotic idea is all binned as soon as possible.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SA14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2021 at 4:16pm
Everyone should have personal id like other countries. Not everyone has a passport or driving license. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2021 at 5:47pm
Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

The chance of someone committing voter fraud is about the same as the chance of them being hit by lightning - i.e. absolutely tiny. We do have problems with election integrity in this country but they are things like Russian interference and the breaking of electoral law by campaign groups (e.g. Vote Leave), not this red herring. Boris won’t do anything about those two examples as they tend to help the conservatives while the requiring of photo ID will hugely disadvantage progressive voters. 
Lastly in terms of the cost of this, if the government/ councils have to pick up the cost of providing over 3m free photo ID it will be a monumental waste of money, but the alternative is even worse. The alternative is that people have to buy their own photo ID which would mean that you’d have to pay to vote, meaning only those with enough money would be able to vote. That would set us back a century, end free and universal suffrage, and I would argue make us no longer a true democracy. I really don’t believe that is an exaggeration. I truly do hope that won’t happen and that this idiotic idea is all binned as soon as possible.
why dont progressive voters have passports bus passes driving licences or student union cards etc?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jones2004 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2021 at 6:27pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

The chance of someone committing voter fraud is about the same as the chance of them being hit by lightning - i.e. absolutely tiny. We do have problems with election integrity in this country but they are things like Russian interference and the breaking of electoral law by campaign groups (e.g. Vote Leave), not this red herring. Boris won’t do anything about those two examples as they tend to help the conservatives while the requiring of photo ID will hugely disadvantage progressive voters. 
Lastly in terms of the cost of this, if the government/ councils have to pick up the cost of providing over 3m free photo ID it will be a monumental waste of money, but the alternative is even worse. The alternative is that people have to buy their own photo ID which would mean that you’d have to pay to vote, meaning only those with enough money would be able to vote. That would set us back a century, end free and universal suffrage, and I would argue make us no longer a true democracy. I really don’t believe that is an exaggeration. I truly do hope that won’t happen and that this idiotic idea is all binned as soon as possible.
why dont progressive voters have passports bus passes driving licences or student union cards etc?
The government’s own analysis shows that around 2 million people don’t have recognisable photo ID (I’d heard the 3 million somewhere else but realised the error double checking now). Wealthier people who live in rural areas are more likely to have either a driving licence or passport and vote Tory (I don’t know how secure other forms of photo ID are). And lastly the main reason I say it would disadvantage progressive voters is do you really believe the government would go ahead with this plan if it disadvantaged it’s own voters?

The two million figure came from here: 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ap sior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2021 at 7:10pm
One way Mugabe stayed in power for so long was to use voter ID cards. 

During food shortages, which happened very often, food was distributed via the ruling ZANU-PF shops. People had to produce ID cards to get food. People were reminded of that before elections.

I think we need to be very wary of the possible ulterior motives of Johnson. Only 6 cases of voter fraud, in how many years ????

A solution to a problem that really is a non-issue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2021 at 12:28am
The uk is not zimbawe. You need p id for lots of thing why not voting?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reesytheexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2021 at 12:59am
I have no problems at all about ID cards tbh for all citizens or other lawfully resident people in the sun but just voter ID cards seems dodgy to disenfranchise some less aware Labour voters . It’s a no for me 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PenScarlet44 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2021 at 10:34am
Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

The chance of someone committing voter fraud is about the same as the chance of them being hit by lightning - i.e. absolutely tiny. We do have problems with election integrity in this country but they are things like Russian interference and the breaking of electoral law by campaign groups (e.g. Vote Leave), not this red herring. Boris won’t do anything about those two examples as they tend to help the conservatives while the requiring of photo ID will hugely disadvantage progressive voters. 
Lastly in terms of the cost of this, if the government/ councils have to pick up the cost of providing over 3m free photo ID it will be a monumental waste of money, but the alternative is even worse. The alternative is that people have to buy their own photo ID which would mean that you’d have to pay to vote, meaning only those with enough money would be able to vote. That would set us back a century, end free and universal suffrage, and I would argue make us no longer a true democracy. I really don’t believe that is an exaggeration. I truly do hope that won’t happen and that this idiotic idea is all binned as soon as possible.
why dont progressive voters have passports bus passes driving licences or student union cards etc?
The government’s own analysis shows that around 2 million people don’t have recognisable photo ID (I’d heard the 3 million somewhere else but realised the error double checking now). Wealthier people who live in rural areas are more likely to have either a driving licence or passport and vote Tory (I don’t know how secure other forms of photo ID are). And lastly the main reason I say it would disadvantage progressive voters is do you really believe the government would go ahead with this plan if it disadvantaged it’s own voters?

The two million figure came from here: 
Yes believe the leftwing guardian lol labour voters are against voter i.d because of the illegals who vote for them
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ap sior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2021 at 10:48am
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

The uk is not zimbawe. You need p id for lots of thing why not voting?

Not suggesting for one minute that the UK is Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe is in the southern hemisphere. 

However what it shows is that the way Mugabe used the voter ID cards then the 'system' is open to abuse by any government, and unless the 'cards' are handed out free to all citizens who do not have any form of photo ID, then the system can lead to some being disenfranchised by a ruthless government.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PenScarlet44 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2021 at 11:10am
Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

The uk is not zimbawe. You need p id for lots of thing why not voting?

Not suggesting for one minute that the UK is Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe is in the southern hemisphere. 

However what it shows is that the way Mugabe used the voter ID cards then the 'system' is open to abuse by any government, and unless the 'cards' are handed out free to all citizens who do not have any form of photo ID, then the system can lead to some being disenfranchised by a ruthless government.
What's your thoughts on Welsh labour pushing for prisoners to have the right to vote ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SospanMawr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2021 at 12:27pm
Originally posted by PenScarlet44 PenScarlet44 wrote:

Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

The chance of someone committing voter fraud is about the same as the chance of them being hit by lightning - i.e. absolutely tiny. We do have problems with election integrity in this country but they are things like Russian interference and the breaking of electoral law by campaign groups (e.g. Vote Leave), not this red herring. Boris won’t do anything about those two examples as they tend to help the conservatives while the requiring of photo ID will hugely disadvantage progressive voters. 
Lastly in terms of the cost of this, if the government/ councils have to pick up the cost of providing over 3m free photo ID it will be a monumental waste of money, but the alternative is even worse. The alternative is that people have to buy their own photo ID which would mean that you’d have to pay to vote, meaning only those with enough money would be able to vote. That would set us back a century, end free and universal suffrage, and I would argue make us no longer a true democracy. I really don’t believe that is an exaggeration. I truly do hope that won’t happen and that this idiotic idea is all binned as soon as possible.
why dont progressive voters have passports bus passes driving licences or student union cards etc?
The government’s own analysis shows that around 2 million people don’t have recognisable photo ID (I’d heard the 3 million somewhere else but realised the error double checking now). Wealthier people who live in rural areas are more likely to have either a driving licence or passport and vote Tory (I don’t know how secure other forms of photo ID are). And lastly the main reason I say it would disadvantage progressive voters is do you really believe the government would go ahead with this plan if it disadvantaged it’s own voters?

The two million figure came from here: 
Yes believe the leftwing guardian lol labour voters are against voter i.d because of the illegals who vote for them
Got any proof of that?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SospanMawr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2021 at 12:33pm
For me personally I think it’s unnecessary. There was what, 6 cases of voter fraud in the last election?

Voting should be made as easy as possible, not adding extra hurdles unless there’s a genuine reason to. Didn’t Boris say he would eat an ID Card if one was forced on him? The estimated cost is an extra £20m per election (no source, seen on Twitter so I don’t know how accurate this is).

All for 6 cases?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2021 at 12:49pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

The uk is not zimbawe. You need p id for lots of thing why not voting?

Because

1. it's not a problem (voter fraud is absolutely tiny in the UK)
2. it's going to cost money (taxpayer if funded nationally; ratepayer if passed on to local authorities) and
3. will disenfranchise disproportionately poorer voters

It is being done purely and simply in connection with reason 3 above - to make it harder for non-Tory voters to vote.

Do you think that

a) the country should be spending money on this, or
b) local authorities should spend money on this, or
c) individuals should have to pay to vote, or
d) that any of this is fair and/or sensible (unless you are a Tory PM)?
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
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