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GPR - Rochester View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 January 2022 at 7:35am
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Edwards and gatland were hard just what wales need.  Ruddock should have dropped all the trouble makers, gats would have. The players let ruddock and jenkins down

It is pretty clear that there was a cabal of players - Martyn Williams, Stephen Jones, Alfie etc who didn't approve of Ruddock's methods despite the winning of a first grand slam in 27 years. Ruddock also had his own issues with the WRU over a contract which clearly left him exposed. 

Ruddock was too soft - full stop. Firstly after stepping into the breach & winning a 6 nations grand slam he should have told the WRU - either a contract or I am out of here but he let it slip. Secondly all the players who were disillusioned should have been dropped. 

Alfie came across during his interview with Butler as a very troubled individual which knowing what we all do now is perfectly understandable. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ladram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 January 2022 at 8:10am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Edwards and gatland were hard just what wales need.  Ruddock should have dropped all the trouble makers, gats would have. The players let ruddock and jenkins down

It is pretty clear that there was a cabal of players - Martyn Williams, Stephen Jones, Alfie etc who didn't approve of Ruddock's methods despite the winning of a first grand slam in 27 years. Ruddock also had his own issues with the WRU over a contract which clearly left him exposed. 

Ruddock was too soft - full stop. Firstly after stepping into the breach & winning a 6 nations grand slam he should have told the WRU - either a contract or I am out of here but he let it slip. Secondly all the players who were disillusioned should have been dropped. 

Alfie came across during his interview with Butler as a very troubled individual which knowing what we all do now is perfectly understandable. 
they won one in 2005 didn't they?LOLLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ladram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 January 2022 at 8:47am
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Edwards and gatland were hard just what wales need.  Ruddock should have dropped all the trouble makers, gats would have. The players let ruddock and jenkins down

It is pretty clear that there was a cabal of players - Martyn Williams, Stephen Jones, Alfie etc who didn't approve of Ruddock's methods despite the winning of a first grand slam in 27 years. Ruddock also had his own issues with the WRU over a contract which clearly left him exposed. 

Ruddock was too soft - full stop. Firstly after stepping into the breach & winning a 6 nations grand slam he should have told the WRU - either a contract or I am out of here but he let it slip. Secondly all the players who were disillusioned should have been dropped. 

Alfie came across during his interview with Butler as a very troubled individual which knowing what we all do now is perfectly understandable. 
they won one in 2005 didn't they?LOLLOL
Sorry gareth that's the year your referring to.Ouch
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 January 2022 at 8:52am
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Edwards and gatland were hard just what wales need.  Ruddock should have dropped all the trouble makers, gats would have. The players let ruddock and jenkins down

It is pretty clear that there was a cabal of players - Martyn Williams, Stephen Jones, Alfie etc who didn't approve of Ruddock's methods despite the winning of a first grand slam in 27 years. Ruddock also had his own issues with the WRU over a contract which clearly left him exposed. 

Ruddock was too soft - full stop. Firstly after stepping into the breach & winning a 6 nations grand slam he should have told the WRU - either a contract or I am out of here but he let it slip. Secondly all the players who were disillusioned should have been dropped. 

Alfie came across during his interview with Butler as a very troubled individual which knowing what we all do now is perfectly understandable. 
they won one in 2005 didn't they?LOLLOL
Sorry gareth that's the year your referring to.Ouch

No problem Nige - we're all feeling a bit like that at the moment.Cry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 January 2022 at 9:00am
There is a doc on Amazon called the story of rugby well worth a watch imho. It really shows how we can never hope to compete with the likes of the French clubs or even most of the English clubs. 
It also shows how professionalism got rid of the suits and the old boy network to a degree in world rugby. 
It also brings home how we in Wales still haven’t moved on from old amateur men in suits running the game and that is what hurting us more than anything. It’s high time we became really professional in Welsh rugby and said good bye to the Blazers who are causing immeasurable harm to the regions. 
She asks why i still can't answer. I guess its in the blood.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 January 2022 at 12:07pm
Originally posted by Why Why wrote:

There is a doc on Amazon called the story of rugby well worth a watch imho. It really shows how we can never hope to compete with the likes of the French clubs or even most of the English clubs.


Why can't we compete with the English clubs when their salary cap is about what the Scarlets squad spend is?

Quote  
It also shows how professionalism got rid of the suits and the old boy network to a degree in world rugby. 
It also brings home how we in Wales still haven’t moved on from old amateur men in suits running the game and that is what hurting us more than anything. It’s high time we became really professional in Welsh rugby and said good bye to the Blazers who are causing immeasurable harm to the regions. 


Agree with this.

Edited by KID A - 06 January 2022 at 12:08pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 January 2022 at 6:36pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Edwards and gatland were hard just what wales need.  Ruddock should have dropped all the trouble makers, gats would have. The players let ruddock and jenkins down

It is pretty clear that there was a cabal of players - Martyn Williams, Stephen Jones, Alfie etc who didn't approve of Ruddock's methods despite the winning of a first grand slam in 27 years. Ruddock also had his own issues with the WRU over a contract which clearly left him exposed. 

Ruddock was too soft - full stop. Firstly after stepping into the breach & winning a 6 nations grand slam he should have told the WRU - either a contract or I am out of here but he let it slip. Secondly all the players who were disillusioned should have been dropped. 

Alfie came across during his interview with Butler as a very troubled individual which knowing what we all do now is perfectly understandable. 

No some of his behaviour then or now is not understandable nor acceptable, including the filthy language on a show that families would have wanted to watch. IMO ruddock was bullied out of his job, or at the very least isolated and pressurised out of his job, mainly by thomas and those weak minded people who followed him. Alun carters version fo events is heartbreaking from ruddocks point of view, the man had no support from the wru and the players.

 After ruddocks pre match speech in paris, thomas asks ruddock to leave the room ? To give his own speech. A speech like most others which was a diatribe of bitterness. It didnt work, we were hammered first half. he went off injured at half time. Ruddock then gave a speech and tightened up tactically and instilled some confidence in them to keep possession and the chances would come, they did and we won. Kevin morgan replaced thomas at full back and had a stormer, maybe than rankled with thomas too? There were also stories of thomas trying to oust gavin henson because he had a book coming out. Yet thomas had a far more controversial book just a few seasons later containing a lot of perosnal info about his wife, what a  hypocrite.

This documentary left many stones unturned. Why for example did steve hansen leave?

Thomas was made captain by ruddock, ruddock told him and the players not to go out drinking after the twickenham 2006 defeat. thomas ignored his advice went out on the drink and blamed it on ruddock again? going to steve lewis? The sheer mindless contradictions of this man. he was responsible for the drinking

Thomas and the cabal according to several sources, in adam jones book and many others, were mainly responsible for ousting ruddock depsite his remonstrating on scrum v to the contrary. 
johnson too was part of this unit undermining ruddock. none had the class to simply speak to ruddock.

Thomas then ranted and raved on scrum v to butlers perfectly legitimate questions and thomas somehow had the nerve to deny he and the players had undermined ruddock as coach. He then ranted pathetically something about the players deserve the credit. They were treated like heroes , his attitude was pitiful. Maybe ruddocks OBE rankled with him

As far as I can tell ruddock behaved impeccably did a grand job and several players behaved disgracefully. Many weak characters followed thomas and co, there was no empathy shown to ruddock. Gareth jenkins I suspect suffered similarly , who can forget thomas pre match speech before fiji, something like forget jenkins speech lets just throw the ball around....cue humiliating defeat

Not mere coincidence one thomas and steve lewis left and gatland came in with edwards and co, he then put a proper leader in place, ryan jones and this internal squabbling ended and success and stability followed. Thanks to these far more professional rugby men. 

It was a disgrace thankfully its in the distant past and we can just hope such nonsense never happens again.


Edited by roy munster - 06 January 2022 at 6:53pm
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 January 2022 at 6:55pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Alfie is an unlikeable charchter isn’t he?

Explain…..?
his attitude on the programme he came across as rude and arrogant. Not to mention his scrum v rant and his constant foul language on the show

I 100% agree
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2022 at 8:23am
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Edwards and gatland were hard just what wales need.  Ruddock should have dropped all the trouble makers, gats would have. The players let ruddock and jenkins down

It is pretty clear that there was a cabal of players - Martyn Williams, Stephen Jones, Alfie etc who didn't approve of Ruddock's methods despite the winning of a first grand slam in 27 years. Ruddock also had his own issues with the WRU over a contract which clearly left him exposed. 

Ruddock was too soft - full stop. Firstly after stepping into the breach & winning a 6 nations grand slam he should have told the WRU - either a contract or I am out of here but he let it slip. Secondly all the players who were disillusioned should have been dropped. 

Alfie came across during his interview with Butler as a very troubled individual which knowing what we all do now is perfectly understandable. 

No some of his behaviour then or now is not understandable nor acceptable, including the filthy language on a show that families would have wanted to watch. IMO ruddock was bullied out of his job, or at the very least isolated and pressurised out of his job, mainly by thomas and those weak minded people who followed him. Alun carters version fo events is heartbreaking from ruddocks point of view, the man had no support from the wru and the players.

 After ruddocks pre match speech in paris, thomas asks ruddock to leave the room ? To give his own speech. A speech like most others which was a diatribe of bitterness. It didnt work, we were hammered first half. he went off injured at half time. Ruddock then gave a speech and tightened up tactically and instilled some confidence in them to keep possession and the chances would come, they did and we won. Kevin morgan replaced thomas at full back and had a stormer, maybe than rankled with thomas too? There were also stories of thomas trying to oust gavin henson because he had a book coming out. Yet thomas had a far more controversial book just a few seasons later containing a lot of perosnal info about his wife, what a  hypocrite.

This documentary left many stones unturned. Why for example did steve hansen leave?

Thomas was made captain by ruddock, ruddock told him and the players not to go out drinking after the twickenham 2006 defeat. thomas ignored his advice went out on the drink and blamed it on ruddock again? going to steve lewis? The sheer mindless contradictions of this man. he was responsible for the drinking

Thomas and the cabal according to several sources, in adam jones book and many others, were mainly responsible for ousting ruddock depsite his remonstrating on scrum v to the contrary. 
johnson too was part of this unit undermining ruddock. none had the class to simply speak to ruddock.

Thomas then ranted and raved on scrum v to butlers perfectly legitimate questions and thomas somehow had the nerve to deny he and the players had undermined ruddock as coach. He then ranted pathetically something about the players deserve the credit. They were treated like heroes , his attitude was pitiful. Maybe ruddocks OBE rankled with him

As far as I can tell ruddock behaved impeccably did a grand job and several players behaved disgracefully. Many weak characters followed thomas and co, there was no empathy shown to ruddock. Gareth jenkins I suspect suffered similarly , who can forget thomas pre match speech before fiji, something like forget jenkins speech lets just throw the ball around....cue humiliating defeat

Not mere coincidence one thomas and steve lewis left and gatland came in with edwards and co, he then put a proper leader in place, ryan jones and this internal squabbling ended and success and stability followed. Thanks to these far more professional rugby men. 

It was a disgrace thankfully its in the distant past and we can just hope such nonsense never happens again.

I tend to agree with most of what you are saying Roy - certainly Ruddock came out of this whole episode with his reputation intact which cannot be said of Lewis, Alfie, Johnson, Stephen Jones or Martyn Williams. I tend to think that Carter's recall of events can be trusted above all others. I do however have some sympathy for what Alfie was going through at that point in time. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reesytheexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2022 at 8:56am
Our beloved Stevo has got off the hook / career stain on all this hasn’t he? Always seems a reasonable and grounded personality . Wisely perhaps kept well away from Ruddock gate over the years. 
"I'd rather have been a judge than a miner.Being a miner,as soon as you are too old and tired and sick and stupid to do the job properly,you have to go.The very opposite applies with judges!"P.Cook
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gate12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2022 at 9:41am
Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:

Our beloved Stevo has got off the hook / career stain on all this hasn’t he? Always seems a reasonable and grounded personality . Wisely perhaps kept well away from Ruddock gate over the years. 

As no-one's stories tie up it's hard to say he got off the hook, he may not have even been on it.

Not in particular around Ruddock but I would have liked to hear from a few of the more rounded people involved who've now seen things from both sides of the fence (coaching and playing) like Peel, Jonathan Thomas and Stevo who were pretty much ever present in that period and people like McBryde who went from a player to being involved in the Welsh coaching set up.

We didn't really learn anything new about that period and it was all a bit disjointed, even though it followed the timeline it felt all over the place, just a bit of nostalgia and work/profile for the usual suspects.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2022 at 9:56am
Alfie and martin williams seem to be the main anti ruddock forces they were all part of the scott johnson love in as was stevo in fairness. Edwards and gatland knew the score weve all heard the mobile phone number on the white board story i’m sure. Wales players need sgt majors not touchy feely arm round the shoulders guys we respond better to hard discipline. It  was always thus and always will be. 

Edited by RR1972 - 07 January 2022 at 10:07am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2022 at 9:57am
Originally posted by Gate12 Gate12 wrote:

Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:

Our beloved Stevo has got off the hook / career stain on all this hasn’t he? Always seems a reasonable and grounded personality . Wisely perhaps kept well away from Ruddock gate over the years. 

As no-one's stories tie up it's hard to say he got off the hook, he may not have even been on it.

Not in particular around Ruddock but I would have liked to hear from a few of the more rounded people involved who've now seen things from both sides of the fence (coaching and playing) like Peel, Jonathan Thomas and Stevo who were pretty much ever present in that period and people like McBryde who went from a player to being involved in the Welsh coaching set up.

We didn't really learn anything new about that period and it was all a bit disjointed, even though it followed the timeline it felt all over the place, just a bit of nostalgia and work/profile for the usual suspects.

I agree, though they are all in decent coaching positions now so I understand why we didn't hear much from them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gate12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2022 at 10:24am
Yeah I can see why they potentially wouldn't want to get involved, wonder how many people were asked to contribute outside of the usual gang.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2022 at 10:30am
bbc let themselves down too allowing all the needless swearing for what is essentially a family show, the beeb seem hell bent on losing viewers. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reesytheexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2022 at 11:35am
Originally posted by Gate12 Gate12 wrote:

Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:

Our beloved Stevo has got off the hook / career stain on all this hasn’t he? Always seems a reasonable and grounded personality . Wisely perhaps kept well away from Ruddock gate over the years. 

As no-one's stories tie up it's hard to say he got off the hook, he may not have even been on it.

Not in particular around Ruddock but I would have liked to hear from a few of the more rounded people involved who've now seen things from both sides of the fence (coaching and playing) like Peel, Jonathan Thomas and Stevo who were pretty much ever present in that period and people like McBryde who went from a player to being involved in the Welsh coaching set up.

We didn't really learn anything new about that period and it was all a bit disjointed, even though it followed the timeline it felt all over the place, just a bit of nostalgia and work/profile for the usual suspects.
I agree- it was Alfie and Shane galore. I wanted to know more about the politics of Mikes departure. I hadn’t realised though that he had no proper contract either and was this a big factor. No Eddie Butler either . I am sure there’s more to tell than we heard although it made good TV nonetheless . I could not warm at all to Alfie tbh
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