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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2022 at 11:04am
Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Get rid of having to play in Wales after you're capped if you don't have 60 caps. Look at how Rees-Zammit has developed, similarly Josh Adams. They have become class player by playing outside of Wales, don't force them to come back just to play for a region in a sub standard environment.

So you are happy with cutting training sessions during a Six Nations campaign by 75% for the majority of the Wales squad? 

To be honest, I don't know but what I do know is the move was meant to have the best Welsh players playing for the regions & the knock on effect was hat the regions would become better. This simply hasn't happened.

Rees-Zammit, Adams, North, Biggar are just some of the names who developed/improved their game by crossing the boarder. Can anyone honestly tell me that Rees-Zammit will improve by being forced to come to a region if he wants to play for Wales? 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2022 at 11:26am
Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Get rid of having to play in Wales after you're capped if you don't have 60 caps. Look at how Rees-Zammit has developed, similarly Josh Adams. They have become class player by playing outside of Wales, don't force them to come back just to play for a region in a sub standard environment.

So you are happy with cutting training sessions during a Six Nations campaign by 75% for the majority of the Wales squad? 

Well I am - it certainly seems to work for Scotland. From the level of performance last Saturday Pivac could have had that squad together for 12 months & they would have struggled to get within 20. Poor excuses made up by poor coaches hence the continuing selection of sub standard players from across the border and total lack of feedback for those who have turned down bigger money to stay in Wales. 

The whole system - 38 elite, 80%/20% & 60 cap rule are plasters attached at varying stages of the decline of Welsh rugby over the past 10 years of professionalism. Time to scrap everything and concentrate on identifying talent, developing that talent and selecting purely on form supported by top class coaching structures and financed properly by the WRU or its replacement professional body. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Legendinmybathroom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2022 at 11:26am
We can’t get rid of any of the regions, you cull a region (or 2) and you lose valuable opportunities to develop players for the national side.  You would lose at least 2 players in each position thus reducing vastly the pool of players to select from.
However, unfortunately for the regions the idiots in charge of the game in wales would rather not fund the professional game properly (except for the national side) and would probably opt for 2 or 3 regions and hope that players would then find employment in England or France and leave someone else pick up their wages whilst still selecting them.  You can guarantee that if they did cull some regions they would miraculously didn’t the 60 cap rule.
The WRU are not fit to run the game in Wales, the grassroots sides still have too much power over decisions that effect the professional game - there is a complete disconnect between what the WRU, the regions and the grassroots side, with each coming at it from different sides/perspectives.
The WRU was set up to run the look after the game in Wales (including distributing the money that it gets wisely) but they have proven in recent times that they would rather spend money on capital gaining projects than on the game itself, which just goes to show how out of touch with reality they really are.   It’s not surprising that they overlooked 2 well respected for welsh captains (who have a very good understanding of how the game has and should be run) for recent high profile roles within the setup and instead appointed people from grassroots sides, who have no concept or understanding of what it takes to run a professional region and deal with professional players etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletnut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2022 at 11:26am
Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Get rid of having to play in Wales after you're capped if you don't have 60 caps. Look at how Rees-Zammit has developed, similarly Josh Adams. They have become class player by playing outside of Wales, don't force them to come back just to play for a region in a sub standard environment.

So you are happy with cutting training sessions during a Six Nations campaign by 75% for the majority of the Wales squad? 

To be honest, I don't know but what I do know is the move was meant to have the best Welsh players playing for the regions & the knock on effect was hat the regions would become better. This simply hasn't happened.

Rees-Zammit, Adams, North, Biggar are just some of the names who developed/improved their game by crossing the boarder. Can anyone honestly tell me that Rees-Zammit will improve by being forced to come to a region if he wants to play for Wales? 

No it wasn’t. The move was purely to strengthen the national side not the pro sides underneath. It’s all about player availability for training camps etc. It has to stay in place. You simply cannot have a situation when you are without your best players for a significant amount of training sessions.
I still wake up late at night and think of what might have been when tim stimpson hit that jammy penalty1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2022 at 11:32am
Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Get rid of having to play in Wales after you're capped if you don't have 60 caps. Look at how Rees-Zammit has developed, similarly Josh Adams. They have become class player by playing outside of Wales, don't force them to come back just to play for a region in a sub standard environment.

So you are happy with cutting training sessions during a Six Nations campaign by 75% for the majority of the Wales squad? 

To be honest, I don't know but what I do know is the move was meant to have the best Welsh players playing for the regions & the knock on effect was hat the regions would become better. This simply hasn't happened.

Rees-Zammit, Adams, North, Biggar are just some of the names who developed/improved their game by crossing the boarder. Can anyone honestly tell me that Rees-Zammit will improve by being forced to come to a region if he wants to play for Wales? 

No it wasn’t. The move was purely to strengthen the national side not the pro sides underneath. It’s all about player availability for training camps etc. It has to stay in place. You simply cannot have a situation when you are without your best players for a significant amount of training sessions.

You mean players like Hogg, Gray, Duhan van der Merwe, Harris, Russell, Sutherland, White & Skinner?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote minded Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2022 at 11:44am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Get rid of having to play in Wales after you're capped if you don't have 60 caps. Look at how Rees-Zammit has developed, similarly Josh Adams. They have become class player by playing outside of Wales, don't force them to come back just to play for a region in a sub standard environment.

So you are happy with cutting training sessions during a Six Nations campaign by 75% for the majority of the Wales squad? 

Well I am - it certainly seems to work for Scotland. From the level of performance last Saturday Pivac could have had that squad together for 12 months & they would have struggled to get within 20. Poor excuses made up by poor coaches hence the continuing selection of sub standard players from across the border and total lack of feedback for those who have turned down bigger money to stay in Wales.
Scotland haven't won the 5/6 Nations in 22 years, in the same space of time where we've had 4 grand slams. Maybe if they win the tournament this year we can say it's "working" but 1 win in a close encounter with England doesn't prove anything just yet.



Edited by minded - 08 February 2022 at 11:46am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletnut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2022 at 11:57am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Get rid of having to play in Wales after you're capped if you don't have 60 caps. Look at how Rees-Zammit has developed, similarly Josh Adams. They have become class player by playing outside of Wales, don't force them to come back just to play for a region in a sub standard environment.

So you are happy with cutting training sessions during a Six Nations campaign by 75% for the majority of the Wales squad? 

To be honest, I don't know but what I do know is the move was meant to have the best Welsh players playing for the regions & the knock on effect was hat the regions would become better. This simply hasn't happened.

Rees-Zammit, Adams, North, Biggar are just some of the names who developed/improved their game by crossing the boarder. Can anyone honestly tell me that Rees-Zammit will improve by being forced to come to a region if he wants to play for Wales? 

No it wasn’t. The move was purely to strengthen the national side not the pro sides underneath. It’s all about player availability for training camps etc. It has to stay in place. You simply cannot have a situation when you are without your best players for a significant amount of training sessions.

You mean players like Hogg, Gray, Duhan van der Merwe, Harris, Russell, Sutherland, White & Skinner?
How many championships have they won? 

Edited by scarletnut - 08 February 2022 at 11:57am
I still wake up late at night and think of what might have been when tim stimpson hit that jammy penalty1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2022 at 12:08pm
Not a wind up just curious what percentage of the boks team play away from sa?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NobbySosban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2022 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

You mean players like Hogg, Gray, Duhan van der Merwe, Harris, Russell, Sutherland, White & Skinner?

It's a cyclical business, particularly when not managed professionally for the long term - Scotland are currently on a crest of a wave, and we'll have to wait and see if they can sustain their results - a couple of Calcutta Cups do not a world-beating team make. They have a batch of really good players, a decent coaching team under Gregor Townsend, backed up by decent young coaches in Edinburgh and Glasgow - all presently aligned, and they're seeing some benefits.

(You might not know it, but our former CEO has been doing some work with the SRU & their pro clubs, and he's found them open and responsive to commercial change - if only we could say the same about the WRU, we might be in better shape and not losing top class, professional management to other countries.Ermm)

Wales are in a slough, and it might yet get deeper. The past two years can't be seen as a representative time to judge how new policies have shaped - every fresh dawn, from the 60-cap rule to the CVC investment, has fallen on the stony ground of the pandemic. To throw that away now would throw the players' futures into flux and accept that half the squad won't get the training time ahead of Test windows. Blimey, it's bad enough training with our U15s when not everyone shows up on a Tuesday night! Wink

So we do need to keep most of our best players in Wales so that they can prepare with Wales, otherwise we're just throwing out the babies with the bathwater. What ends me is the lack of vision from WRU management - if we focus on and invest in developing a successful pro level in the game, that success will bubble up to a winning Test team with deep competition for places and that, in turn, will permeate down to increased engagement, player participation and healthy minis & juniors sections  at the grass roots clubs. It's a Win-Win-Win situation, but currently blocked by a shameteur gravy-train of a board in the Union who either don't realise or don't care about the long-term damage they're causing by inhibiting the professional running of the sport in Wales.

That change needs to happen soon, otherwise we'll see a trend that will make  the previous 27 years of hurt seem like a blip. The turkeys need to wake up and smell the gravy, because it's the only chance we all have to shape a viable future, from bottom to top.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2022 at 12:23pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Not a wind up just curious what percentage of the boks team play away from sa?

I would estimate around 50%. They tried restrictions, decided just before the last World Cup that they were nonsense .... oh and what happened???????. Ambitious professional rugby players want to play in contending teams & be paid the going rate or more. Trying to stop them does not make sense when the teams available are light years from being contenders and/or cannot afford the money. 

Just reeling off how many titles Wales have won as opposed to others is a bit nonsensical - we are presupposing that the 60 cap rule was somehow something to do with that & not down to Gatland being a decent coach and having the best defensive coach in the World on board. Who is to say that the 60 cap rule made a jot of difference. For sure Gatland & Pivac have toed the party line - why wouldn't they. Do we hear Gregor bitching about how much time he has with 40% of his squad missing - of course not.

One thing that is not in dispute - the 60 cap rule has in no way shape or form improved the Welsh regions/clubs. They have continued to fall behind the Irish & Scots. Fellow posters should ask themselves this question - if the 60 cap rule is such an important part of the fabric of Welsh rugby why do most of us on here advocate only signing NWQ players. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gate12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2022 at 12:54pm
Few things I'd change:

The 80/20 funding is shifted to player release compensation, more pressure on players to perform and less politics around who goes where, in particular exiles coming back to Wales. Leave the teams succeed or fail on their own merits.

Either have a full on A League or have squad/academy players playing much more in the Welsh prem rather than the existing halfway house, I'd prefer the Welsh prem option to build some support at that local level rather than A games in England, Ireland or Scotland.

Schoolboy, 16's and 18's rugby is in blocks, i.e. club then school/college then academy games, rather than youngsters having to go from a Scarlets academy game to a club game to a college game etc.

The WRU to actually let everyone know what they're trying to do long term at all levels, 'play more, win more' is just a tad high level.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2022 at 1:15pm
Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by Why Why wrote:

One obvious thing to do is get rid of Dragons who have been a drain on resources for too long without achieving anything. They have been a joke and Ryan talks a good game but is doing no better than the previous shambles.
At the moment they are a luxury the WRU cannot afford 

The Dragons shouldn’t go. A pro side could be cut but it wouldn’t be them and rightly so.
Why do you think they shouldn’t go, and if not then then who should because if it’s not to be them then surely we are very vulnerable. 
She asks why i still can't answer. I guess its in the blood.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote minded Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2022 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Not a wind up just curious what percentage of the boks team play away from sa?
According to wiki 14 out of 32 in last Autumn squad play outside SA. 43%
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2022 at 2:11pm
Originally posted by Why Why wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by Why Why wrote:

One obvious thing to do is get rid of Dragons who have been a drain on resources for too long without achieving anything. They have been a joke and Ryan talks a good game but is doing no better than the previous shambles.
At the moment they are a luxury the WRU cannot afford 

The Dragons shouldn’t go. A pro side could be cut but it wouldn’t be them and rightly so.
Why do you think they shouldn’t go, and if not then then who should because if it’s not to be them then surely we are very vulnerable. 
i’d like to know why they shouldn’t go tbh
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimmywilde Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2022 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by minded minded wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Not a wind up just curious what percentage of the boks team play away from sa?
According to wiki 14 out of 32 in last Autumn squad play outside SA. 43%
I think they tend to leave after a World Cup to cash in.
23 out of 31 in their World Cup squad played in South Africa at the time.
Roughly 74%.

And many of the 26% were experienced internationals who slot back in without too much problem. More Biggar than LRZ.

Also the long training camps and warm up games beforehand tend to build cohesion. This is why Fiji are such a bloody handful at World Cups.
Well, that and being awesome physical specimens 😊




Edited by jimmywilde - 08 February 2022 at 2:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2022 at 3:30pm
With regards to South Africa - lets forget the squad - of the 23 players named in the final 14 were based outside South Africa which is 61%. If the WRU do not change the system dramatically then that is the amount of Welsh players who will be earning their money outside Wales who deserve to be in the Welsh squad but who may or may not be selected due to various restrictions. 

Of course its important playing for Wales but there will come a time when the attraction of far more money & new environments will tip the balance. Its already started - 3 players who would certainly have featured in this current squad made themselves unavailable. Carry on burying their head in the sand and pretending there isn't a huge problem with professional rugby in Wales will see that increase steadily over coming years. 
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