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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gaffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 April 2021 at 10:06pm
Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

If the market for top players is expensive, it is better to pay to increase the quality of coaches in your organisation.


i agree. Leinster have gone down this route rather than super star player recruitment. In saying that it worked for toloun and sarries!👍
The latter two have pockets deeper than your stingiest drinking mate in terms of when they’d buy a round.


In 2018 Saracens wrote off £48m of debt. Still making a loss of £4m per annum with £18m per annum revenue (as of 2019).

Yep, Nigel has very deep pockets.


Edited by gaffer - 06 April 2021 at 10:07pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jones2004 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 April 2021 at 11:06pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

If the market for top players is expensive, it is better to pay to increase the quality of coaches in your organisation.
i agree. Leinster have gone down this route rather than super star player recruitment. In saying that it worked for toloun and sarries!👍
Leinster have signed Fardy and Gibson-Park in recent season so it’s not like they’re pinching pennies with their overseas signings. We obviously couldn’t do that because of our smaller budget, although I do agree with your general point that Leinster have spent big on their coaches to improve their players, rather than just buying new and better players.


Edited by Jones2004 - 06 April 2021 at 11:07pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2021 at 7:13am
The difference in Ireland is individual backers pay the salary for their star players. I read someone say that the person paying for RG Synman is unhappy at the moment due to him suffering an injury in one of his first matches. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletnut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2021 at 7:43am
Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

If the market for top players is expensive, it is better to pay to increase the quality of coaches in your organisation.
i agree. Leinster have gone down this route rather than super star player recruitment. In saying that it worked for toloun and sarries!👍
Leinster have signed Fardy and Gibson-Park in recent season so it’s not like they’re pinching pennies with their overseas signings. We obviously couldn’t do that because of our smaller budget, although I do agree with your general point that Leinster have spent big on their coaches to improve their players, rather than just buying new and better players.
Gibson-Park was a bit part player in Super Rugby. I doubt they paid big bucks for him 
I still wake up late at night and think of what might have been when tim stimpson hit that jammy penalty1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2021 at 8:09am
Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

If the market for top players is expensive, it is better to pay to increase the quality of coaches in your organisation.
i agree. Leinster have gone down this route rather than super star player recruitment. In saying that it worked for toloun and sarries!👍
Leinster have signed Fardy and Gibson-Park in recent season so it’s not like they’re pinching pennies with their overseas signings. We obviously couldn’t do that because of our smaller budget, although I do agree with your general point that Leinster have spent big on their coaches to improve their players, rather than just buying new and better players.
Gibson-Park was a bit part player in Super Rugby. I doubt they paid big bucks for him 

Precisely Steff. There is some narrative that Leinster buy their success which is a little off the mark. Their investment over the past 5 years in overseas players has been way lower than ours & miniscule when compared with the top French teams.

Leinster have invested heavily in their coaching structure bringing in top level coaches who understand the requirements to win at the top level. Below that they have a great academy structure which prepares their young players to play the Leinster way and is totally geared to getting these players ready for the 1st team. In a phrase the system is totally joined up with a clear focus on the goals. Take one example - Ryan Baird. Within 18 months of making his debut he has seemlessly moved into the Ireland squad.

If the WRU were fit for purpose, which they clearly are not, they would be using the windfall monies to sit down with all regions and drastically improve their academy & coaching structures so that Welsh talent is not wasted and that it can be given every opportunity to flourish. Investing in capital projects for future revenue is a great idea but if a project is worth doing with good enough future income streams then it surely could come from business loans which are pretty cheap in the current climate leaving the windfall money available for the solving the very real problems which abound in regional rugby. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eastern outpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2021 at 8:14am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

If the market for top players is expensive, it is better to pay to increase the quality of coaches in your organisation.
i agree. Leinster have gone down this route rather than super star player recruitment. In saying that it worked for toloun and sarries!👍
Leinster have signed Fardy and Gibson-Park in recent season so it’s not like they’re pinching pennies with their overseas signings. We obviously couldn’t do that because of our smaller budget, although I do agree with your general point that Leinster have spent big on their coaches to improve their players, rather than just buying new and better players.
Gibson-Park was a bit part player in Super Rugby. I doubt they paid big bucks for him 

Precisely Steff. There is some narrative that Leinster buy their success which is a little off the mark. Their investment over the past 5 years in overseas players has been way lower than ours & miniscule when compared with the top French teams.

Leinster have invested heavily in their coaching structure bringing in top level coaches who understand the requirements to win at the top level. Below that they have a great academy structure which prepares their young players to play the Leinster way and is totally geared to getting these players ready for the 1st team. In a phrase the system is totally joined up with a clear focus on the goals. Take one example - Ryan Baird. Within 18 months of making his debut he has seemlessly moved into the Ireland squad.

If the WRU were fit for purpose, which they clearly are not, they would be using the windfall monies to sit down with all regions and drastically improve their academy & coaching structures so that Welsh talent is not wasted and that it can be given every opportunity to flourish. Investing in capital projects for future revenue is a great idea but if a project is worth doing with good enough future income streams then it surely could come from business loans which are pretty cheap in the current climate leaving the windfall money available for the solving the very real problems which abound in regional rugby. 
The last paragraph, in particular, is spot on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob o'r Bont Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2021 at 8:40am
Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

If the market for top players is expensive, it is better to pay to increase the quality of coaches in your organisation.
i agree. Leinster have gone down this route rather than super star player recruitment. In saying that it worked for toloun and sarries!👍
Leinster have signed Fardy and Gibson-Park in recent season so it’s not like they’re pinching pennies with their overseas signings. We obviously couldn’t do that because of our smaller budget, although I do agree with your general point that Leinster have spent big on their coaches to improve their players, rather than just buying new and better players.
Gibson-Park was a bit part player in Super Rugby. I doubt they paid big bucks for him 

Precisely Steff. There is some narrative that Leinster buy their success which is a little off the mark. Their investment over the past 5 years in overseas players has been way lower than ours & miniscule when compared with the top French teams.

Leinster have invested heavily in their coaching structure bringing in top level coaches who understand the requirements to win at the top level. Below that they have a great academy structure which prepares their young players to play the Leinster way and is totally geared to getting these players ready for the 1st team. In a phrase the system is totally joined up with a clear focus on the goals. Take one example - Ryan Baird. Within 18 months of making his debut he has seemlessly moved into the Ireland squad.

If the WRU were fit for purpose, which they clearly are not, they would be using the windfall monies to sit down with all regions and drastically improve their academy & coaching structures so that Welsh talent is not wasted and that it can be given every opportunity to flourish. Investing in capital projects for future revenue is a great idea but if a project is worth doing with good enough future income streams then it surely could come from business loans which are pretty cheap in the current climate leaving the windfall money available for the solving the very real problems which abound in regional rugby. 
The last paragraph, in particular, is spot on.
Indeed.  Good post GPR. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reesytheexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2021 at 9:10am
As we begin to emerge from a chaotic Covid year do we assume that the 4 Regions ( Clubs?) model is here to stay then ? The trouble is that each region will want their region to continue based on the ‘over  my dead body’ school of logic which isn’t necessarily substantive in the world of finances and TV and Sponorship revenue which is arguably worth more than a £100 -300 clump of season tickets. 

Will the WRU lead the way forward and in what manner? The regional debate and the sustainability of 4 regions just looks unrealistic in our professional game 🤔 I pose the issue not the answer! 


Edited by reesytheexile - 07 April 2021 at 9:17am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eastern outpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2021 at 9:27am
Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:

As we begin to emerge from a chaotic Covid year do we assume that the 4 Regions ( Clubs?) model is here to stay then ? The trouble is that each region will want their region to continue based on the ‘over  my dead body’ school of logic which isn’t necessarily substantive in the world of finances and TV and Sponorship revenue which is arguably worth more than a £100 -300 clump of season tickets. 

Will the WRU lead the way forward and in what manner? The regional debate and the sustainability of 4 regions just looks unrealistic in our professional game 🤔 I pose the issue not the answer! 
There are questions related to how both the professional clubs and the WRU measure up.

Clubs-wise, how do the different commercial departments perform? 
You can ask the same question across many departments of the pro clubs. 

The last time it was done, we scored highly and were best in the KPIs, I believe.

As for the WRU leading in a creative, smart, business-like way, I won’t hold my breath. They are more likely to lead with negative stuff and cuts and/or stories about using money as if they were an investment company, not a supporter and grower of their sport.

Just my view.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob Hunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2021 at 9:30am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

If the market for top players is expensive, it is better to pay to increase the quality of coaches in your organisation.
i agree. Leinster have gone down this route rather than super star player recruitment. In saying that it worked for toloun and sarries!👍
Leinster have signed Fardy and Gibson-Park in recent season so it’s not like they’re pinching pennies with their overseas signings. We obviously couldn’t do that because of our smaller budget, although I do agree with your general point that Leinster have spent big on their coaches to improve their players, rather than just buying new and better players.
Gibson-Park was a bit part player in Super Rugby. I doubt they paid big bucks for him 

Precisely Steff. There is some narrative that Leinster buy their success which is a little off the mark. Their investment over the past 5 years in overseas players has been way lower than ours & miniscule when compared with the top French teams.

Leinster have invested heavily in their coaching structure bringing in top level coaches who understand the requirements to win at the top level. Below that they have a great academy structure which prepares their young players to play the Leinster way and is totally geared to getting these players ready for the 1st team. In a phrase the system is totally joined up with a clear focus on the goals. Take one example - Ryan Baird. Within 18 months of making his debut he has seemlessly moved into the Ireland squad.

If the WRU were fit for purpose, which they clearly are not, they would be using the windfall monies to sit down with all regions and drastically improve their academy & coaching structures so that Welsh talent is not wasted and that it can be given every opportunity to flourish. Investing in capital projects for future revenue is a great idea but if a project is worth doing with good enough future income streams then it surely could come from business loans which are pretty cheap in the current climate leaving the windfall money available for the solving the very real problems which abound in regional rugby. 
I agree with your comment at the start of the third paragraph, but I’m not sure that it would stop the Ospreys from parasitising the other region’ academies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reesytheexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2021 at 9:31am
Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:

As we begin to emerge from a chaotic Covid year do we assume that the 4 Regions ( Clubs?) model is here to stay then ? The trouble is that each region will want their region to continue based on the ‘over  my dead body’ school of logic which isn’t necessarily substantive in the world of finances and TV and Sponorship revenue which is arguably worth more than a £100 -300 clump of season tickets. 

Will the WRU lead the way forward and in what manner? The regional debate and the sustainability of 4 Welsh regions just looks unrealistic in our professional game 🤔 I pose the issue not the answer! 
There are questions related to how both the professional clubs and the WRU measure up.

Clubs-wise, how do the different commercial departments perform? 
You can ask the same question across many departments of the pro clubs. 

The last time it was done, we scored highly and were best in the KPIs, I believe.

As for the WRU leading in a creative, smart, business-like way, I won’t hold my breath. They are more likely to lead with negative stuff and cuts and/or stories about using money as if they were an investment company, not a supporter and grower of their sport.

Just my view.

I share your reservations about the WRU. I feel that they won’t dictate/ proscribe harshly on the one hand,or on the other hand  empathise and support. I just anticipate continued fudging sadly when we need dynamism. 

Edited by reesytheexile - 07 April 2021 at 9:36am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2021 at 9:45am
Originally posted by Rob Hunt Rob Hunt wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

If the market for top players is expensive, it is better to pay to increase the quality of coaches in your organisation.
i agree. Leinster have gone down this route rather than super star player recruitment. In saying that it worked for toloun and sarries!👍
Leinster have signed Fardy and Gibson-Park in recent season so it’s not like they’re pinching pennies with their overseas signings. We obviously couldn’t do that because of our smaller budget, although I do agree with your general point that Leinster have spent big on their coaches to improve their players, rather than just buying new and better players.
Gibson-Park was a bit part player in Super Rugby. I doubt they paid big bucks for him 

Precisely Steff. There is some narrative that Leinster buy their success which is a little off the mark. Their investment over the past 5 years in overseas players has been way lower than ours & miniscule when compared with the top French teams.

Leinster have invested heavily in their coaching structure bringing in top level coaches who understand the requirements to win at the top level. Below that they have a great academy structure which prepares their young players to play the Leinster way and is totally geared to getting these players ready for the 1st team. In a phrase the system is totally joined up with a clear focus on the goals. Take one example - Ryan Baird. Within 18 months of making his debut he has seemlessly moved into the Ireland squad.

If the WRU were fit for purpose, which they clearly are not, they would be using the windfall monies to sit down with all regions and drastically improve their academy & coaching structures so that Welsh talent is not wasted and that it can be given every opportunity to flourish. Investing in capital projects for future revenue is a great idea but if a project is worth doing with good enough future income streams then it surely could come from business loans which are pretty cheap in the current climate leaving the windfall money available for the solving the very real problems which abound in regional rugby. 
I agree with your comment at the start of the third paragraph, but I’m not sure that it would stop the Ospreys from parasitising the other region’ academies.

I really fail to understand this continuing criticism of the Ospreys particularly on a topic which is, unless I am mistaken, about the WRU and the way forward in governance. We really need to get over who the Ospreys sign & where they come from. These are young professional players who are totally free to decide who they sign a contract with. The fact may be that the Ospreys may have convinced said players that they will get more opportunity for games and that they, as a region, are on an inproving path.

If I were a young 20/21 year aspiring professional I would look at Ruddock & Booth and then at Delaney/Whiffin and think - you know what no contest in past achievement levels & current performance levels. Time for us Scarlets fans to look inward and get our own house in order. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Fscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2021 at 9:51am
Originally posted by Rob Hunt Rob Hunt wrote:

I agree with your comment at the start of the third paragraph, but I’m not sure that it would stop the Ospreys from parasitising the other region’ academies.

They are a region which seems to have stabilised it's issues off the field & are showing the same faith we did a few years ago in the youngsters. The fact they are signing young Welsh players from other regions is not parasitic. I'm sure if they were filling their squad with overseas players people would be in uproar on here. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gaffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2021 at 11:04am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

If the market for top players is expensive, it is better to pay to increase the quality of coaches in your organisation.
i agree. Leinster have gone down this route rather than super star player recruitment. In saying that it worked for toloun and sarries!👍
Leinster have signed Fardy and Gibson-Park in recent season so it’s not like they’re pinching pennies with their overseas signings. We obviously couldn’t do that because of our smaller budget, although I do agree with your general point that Leinster have spent big on their coaches to improve their players, rather than just buying new and better players.
Gibson-Park was a bit part player in Super Rugby. I doubt they paid big bucks for him 

Precisely Steff. There is some narrative that Leinster buy their success which is a little off the mark. Their investment over the past 5 years in overseas players has been way lower than ours & miniscule when compared with the top French teams.

Leinster have invested heavily in their coaching structure bringing in top level coaches who understand the requirements to win at the top level. Below that they have a great academy structure which prepares their young players to play the Leinster way and is totally geared to getting these players ready for the 1st team. In a phrase the system is totally joined up with a clear focus on the goals. Take one example - Ryan Baird. Within 18 months of making his debut he has seemlessly moved into the Ireland squad.

If the WRU were fit for purpose, which they clearly are not, they would be using the windfall monies to sit down with all regions and drastically improve their academy & coaching structures so that Welsh talent is not wasted and that it can be given every opportunity to flourish. Investing in capital projects for future revenue is a great idea but if a project is worth doing with good enough future income streams then it surely could come from business loans which are pretty cheap in the current climate leaving the windfall money available for the solving the very real problems which abound in regional rugby. 


I also agree wholeheartedly with GPR's final paragraph.  The CVC money is needed NOW to "drastically improve their academy & coaching structures so that Welsh talent is not wasted". Otherwise, young players will move - Bath, Bristol, Gloucester are all within easy reach - and why should English clubs get the benefit of their talent before Welsh ones?

Furthermore, whilst "investing in capital projects for future revenue is a great idea" the WRU seem to have become obsessed with turning themselves into a self sustaining venture capital business whose main focus is not rugby. Future income is all very well but with current uncertainties and the gap in funding/development between our Regions and England/Ireland/France, in five years all the Regions could be dead in the water as investors/supporters will be sick of lack of success. Buttress, for example, I've read is already sick of the WRU's cack-handedness and if he bails the Dragons will be gone sooner rather than later. It won't take much more to affect Cardiff, Ospreys or us.

Someone, has sold the WRU the idea, "this is how to make money", "this time next year we'll all be millionaires" - sound familiar.  The WRU are still the Welsh equivalent of Del & Rodney when it comes to managing the pro game.


Edited by gaffer - 07 April 2021 at 11:09am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2021 at 2:03pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

If the market for top players is expensive, it is better to pay to increase the quality of coaches in your organisation.


i agree. Leinster have gone down this route rather than super star player recruitment. In saying that it worked for toloun and sarries!👍


Leinster had a little second row injury crisis one year and they just went and bought the best lock on the planet in the middle of the season - world cup winning Kiwi Brad Thorne. That was in March 2012, and they went on to win the Heineken Cup that year.

Anyone who thinks Leinster don't buy their way to trophies is deluded. Their player payroll is now above all English clubs, and most of the French clubs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2021 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

If the market for top players is expensive, it is better to pay to increase the quality of coaches in your organisation.


i agree. Leinster have gone down this route rather than super star player recruitment. In saying that it worked for toloun and sarries!👍


Leinster had a little second row injury crisis one year and they just went and bought the best lock on the planet in the middle of the season - world cup winning Kiwi Brad Thorne. That was in March 2012, and they went on to win the Heineken Cup that year.

Anyone who thinks Leinster don't buy their way to trophies is deluded. Their player payroll is now above all English clubs, and most of the French clubs.

You have plenty of anti Leinster form so the above comment does not surprise me. The Leinster success story is firmly built on Irish talent mostly from their local environs. The fact that the IRFU are a million years ahead of the WRU in their professionalism & so fund their provinces well and that Leinster attract average gates during normal seasons which are 100% more than any Welsh region will clearly lead to them having far better funding than any of our regions could dream of. If I were a Leinster supporter would I care - absolutely not; should we be trying to replicate what they have achieved - too right. 

Maybe we can add lack of funding to our already stated reasons for playing such garbage such as international call ups/injuries to so many front line player/refs are against us/Irish TMO's are against us. The list goes on and is frankly pitiful. 
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